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Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

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Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#471
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't do anything to answer my question about where libertarians stand on the question. I still don't get what a civilization without a "monopoly on laws and law enforcement" would look like.

"Laws" and "law enforcement" are just products, similar to any other service. If you can imagine what a civilization without a monopoly on food production, or house cleaning services, or medical services would look like, you should be able to imagine with a civilization without a monopoly on laws and law enforcement would look like. Most people believe that monopolies are not economically efficient for producing "ord…

I don't think laws and law enforcement are products in this regard. There are, after all, certain functional requirements for people to live together in cities and two of these appear to be some sense of private property and protection against violent crime. Another is management of infrastructure.

These three things regulate the space between households. The government, however defined, must monopolize them because otherwise you give tremendous power to the hands of private corporations. At least with a government there are political constraints that there are not with a corporation.

However the argument over monopoly I don't think comes down to this. I haven't yet met a libertarian who thought that murder should be legal absent a contract to the contrary, nor have I yet met one that thought that big business should be able to control all roads and exclude whoever they want from travelling. If you would argue these things, I suppose you'd be the first at least that I have met.

The disagreement I think is actually a disagreement that hasn't really been brought to in much of the Libertarian community. The problem with monopolies are scale and power problems and these are the same problems with government in the US today as well. We want to prevent monopolies by decentralizing power in the marketplace. The desire I think is to do the same in government space. So the argument is over a decentralized government model vs a heavily centralized government model.

I think if folks came to realize that that is exactly what is desired, it would be easier for Distributsts and Libertarians to make common cause. After all, does it really matter whether a city is formally private or public sector? What does matter is that government power is distributed and that it is held most strongly where it is closest to the people.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#472
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarchism has a strong sense of morality based on communal rights. It's not strictly amoral (and in fact is very far from it).

I wasn't clear, I didn't mean to imply that anarchism has no morality, just that it isn't based on individuals' property rights. (At least, that's my understanding of it.)

I won't pretend to fully understand it either, but self-proclaimed anarchists that I've talked to online have indicated that they do respect private and personal property. A man could own a baseball bat in the property sense, but a company could not own property at all (or at least, property they expect not to be damaged by an anarchist).

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny how me pointing out the stupidity and bullshit of a group of criminals makes me an asshole... But a guy who has actually lost people's money, put them at risk of reprisal from drug dealers, helped people (potentially young people) commit major crimes, enabled future addicts, and potentially is lying about the security flaw to steal all this money while spouting hypocritical contradictory statements...is a…

It's the condescending way you write that makes you seem like an asshole... i.e saying "Hahahahah" all the time - I don't particularly disagree with your points but the insulting tone is unnecessary, don't you think?

At one point, I wish I could shout like him. There are stuffs that are obvious: it is simple ideas. You speak about it nicely and you get scorned. Then, you doubt, you persist and you discover that you were right: it is now obvious, and still they laugh at you. So maybe, nervously, you laugh even louder.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was the first guy to ever use the term libertarian; so from that point until the late 60's, libertarianism was something Rand was ostensibly against. Most libertarians today embrace the Randian critique of the libertarianism of her day. In other words, the libertarianism of today is by and large anarcho-capitalism rebranded.

> He was the first guy to ever use the term libertarian The word has multiple meanings. He used a different one. How is that relevant? It's like you cited the first use of the word "mouse" (animal) when we were talking about computer mice. And your comments don't make sense. Rand strongly criticized anarcho-capitalism, you say libertarians today are largely anarcho-capitalists, and yet you seem to be disagreeing with…

It was a historical reference meant to mark the beginnings of the word in the english lexicon, not as any particular fully-formed ideological system. Like saying "from Stonehenge to the Big Ben" when speaking of English architecture.

In the Venn-diagram of libertarians, Ayn Rand fans, and Murray Rothbard adherents, the area of the cross-section is non-zero.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#475
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can take your pick of places to live without functioning governments. Most of them are probably uninhabited islands or starving regions in Africa, but it's up to you.

That doesn't answer my question. It's clear that essentially every society on Earth is organized by a government. I was asking if that has been a positive thing. Widespread does not imply positive.

I think you can drop "essentially" from your statement and say "every society."

I would point you back to Aristotle's "Politics" actually where he comes up with a theory of government as follows (heavily paraphrasing):

1. Men and women come together to form the social basis of society, namely the procreative household. This is the vehicle by which culture is passed on, and it is the economic center of the society (pre-industrialization at least). Consequently the procreative household is the engine of both culture and society, and the goal of the economy is to nourish the household.

2. Households come together and address their common problems by forming organizations to do this. This is the basis of the polis.

(As an aside, Aristotle was not particularly hostile to same-sex sexual relationships, but saw marriage purely as a heterosexual institution due to the cross-generational imperatives. Also he had a very naive view of how gender power relationships actually worked in Greece.)

Now, viewed from this perspective (and it is pretty much the total basis for all pre-industrial society everywhere), you have government being a union of married child-raising households (since adoption is a replacement for procreation where that is not possible). Law then exists to address the common problems between households, both in terms of violent crime and contract issues, but also shared commons and infrastructure.

Now, this is very different to 20th and 21st century America and Europe. Government is not a union of isolated individuals, but if mini-state/businesses in the form of households. This sense of government formally passed from the US with the passage of the 19th Amendment but had been falling apart for a few decades prior under pressures from industrialization, and vestiges continue to be suppressed even today (one example is the argument over same-sex marriage, but another is the general hostility towards self-employment at the hands of Congress).

A government which is a union of households, which respects near-total autonomy of the household is far weaker than a government which subjects the household to scrutiny by CPS, undermines retiring with the kids with social security, requiring most kids to go to public schools, and so forth because the union-of-households government cannot interfere to form culture.

There are common problems that exist in a domain that a government must address. There is a social imperative to government. The real question is over the scope and nature of that government. Is government to be a social contract of individuals (but it's really a super-intrusive form of adherence contract since the individual can't really individually negotiate it)? Or is it a more limited institution in the service of households, not individuals?

I think when you look at it, that's the real choice (i.e. between a Lockean/Humean government and an Aristotelian one), not between a government and anarchy. People always invent government.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#476

Irony at its finest here. If you're going to go to the effort to use a decentralised currency that is difficult to track to a particular individual for a website selling illicit drugs and items served via a decentralised and anonymously run network, don't expect any sympathy when your Bitcoin goes missing... You go to the great effort of avoiding conventional means of currency (banking, trackable transactions to indi…

Your point about the traditional banking system is irrelevant since there's zero chance of successfully buying a kilo of coke with your Visa card.

So whether it's bricks of cash or shady darknet sites, the prohibition on drugs necessarily doesn't leave one with much recourse when transactions go wrong.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#478
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even the most staunch of minarchists wouldn't generally repeal the 'base' laws, which are those laws that, if violated, infringe upon the rights of others. Libertarians do not, for example, suggest that murder should be legal -- everyone has the right to life. The set of laws is not really the problem then. Literally everyone agrees that "government should be as small as possible", the problem is that no one ever a…

"literally everyone agrees that 'government should be as small as possible". Coming from Europe, that strikes me as a fascinating American (I presume) statement. From countless conversations I (Libertarian leaning - something which I just discovered in the last few years, did not even know that such a thing existed before that) had in the past in various European countries I found that the size of government was usua…

The concept comes out of something akin to the sibling reply to my comment.

That there are legal concepts/ideas/etc. that would allow government to regulate something is usually a given, especially in our globalized world where you might buy something online made 3 states away (so that the Federal government is clearly in the lead).

The conceit is that just because government can get involved doesn't mean it's a good idea for government to get involved. In fact it's practically axiomatic here that the 'proper' level of government involvement in laws, regulation, etc. is the minimum needed to do the job and that government interaction beyond that level is actively harmful. Even the Democrats tend to toe this line, their disagreement generally comes at the level of "minimum needed" (e.g. there was a push for single-payer option before ObamaCare was finalized as that was felt to be the only way to really meet the goals intended).

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Zed, I want to make myself clear, here: I have absolutely nothing to say whatsoever about whatever substantive claims you might be making. I'm just telling you to stop being a asshole about it. For what it's worth, this is Responding to Tone, or DH2[#] #: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

Only if I were disagreeing with some substantive point he made, which I'm not (I'm not agreeing, either). The substantive issue of my comment was his tone. I'm not disagreeing with him or trying to convince others that he's wrong; I'm just calling him out for being a jackass.

> Only if I were disagreeing with some substantive point he made, which I'm not (I'm not agreeing, either). The substantive issue of my comment was his tone. I'm not disagreeing with him or trying to convince others that he's wrong

FTA: So if the worst thing you can say about something is to criticize its tone, you're not saying much. Is the author flippant, but correct? Better that than grave and wrong. And if the author is incorrect somewhere, say where.

> I'm just calling him out for being a jackass.

This is actually DH0, Name Calling.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have a deep misunderstanding of libertarianism (which is your right of course). Libertarians don't necessarily not believe in laws, they simply don't believe in a monopoly of laws and law enforcers. This is kind of the whole point. Its clear that in your world view "justice" is somehow inexorably tied to government, but there others that disagree (which leads to your confusion in thinking that because som…

So if some group decided I was a criminal by their standards (say if I insulted them on the street, or something), they could come to my home in the night and summarily execute me?

Couldn't they do that as things stand now? Your only protection is that they would not do so for fear of reprisal from the state. Perhaps it could be similarly effective to rely on fear of reprisal from other vigilante groups.
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