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Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

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Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#321

Post by mpyne »

joe_the_user wrote: post #292
dnautics wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, libertarians don't necessarily believe that justice is attained through the market, but that market allocation of resources is more just than political allocation of resources. "everyone is greedy" is not a good characterization of libertarianism; there are plenty of libertarian social benefit groups; a good example that ties into the OP is "sean's outpost" which is a bitcoin-based organization providing for the…

"everyone is greedy" is not a good characterization of libertarianism; there are plenty of libertarian social benefit groups You are saying because not all libertarians are actually greedy, they don't believe everyone is greedy. If were to rephrase the statement as "everyone seeking individual good will result in a collective good", I don't see you really disagreeing. The problem is that we already see people seeking…

Likewise the market is probably a very efficient resource allocation mechanism, but only for economic goods. There are many other types of "goods" out there that can't be quantified in dollars and cents. How much is, say, human dignity worth? Child labor? Sadly they both have prices, but I'd like to think we're better than treating people only in terms of their economic value today.

Worse yet, the market itself requires regulatory aspects to make it work. You don't simply roll into a digital equivalent of a barter economy and call things an improvement. There's a lot that good governments do to make this kind of thing happen, and just because it's transparent when it's working right doesn't mean the government doesn't warrant credit and it doesn't mean it was an easy task to make it work right (especially when there are so many examples of governments doing this poorly with negative follow-on effects).

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#322

Post by rurban »

jfasi wrote: post #3

Given illegal nature of Silk Road 2, I can't help but be suspicious of this explanation of the hack. If someone's sufficiently willing to flaunt laws as to operate a site devoted to selling contraband, what stops them from taking advantage of their position of power and stealing from their users?

Given the latest news it is also very likely that the FBI with the help of some other government cyber-crime unit raided Silk Road 2. You will see it only when the thieves will try to sell or exchange the bitcoins.

The FBI won't do, and it will be in the news sooner and later.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#323

Post by username223 »

exratione wrote: post #240
MartinCron wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't get this. If there isn't a monopoly on laws and law enforcement, does that mean that victims of crimes should be able to shop around to get the law enforcement agency that they want? Should the accused? Is there any historical precedent for anything like this actually working?

Iceland, in the age of the sagas, 1000-1300 or so. Here is a link to layperson's overview: http://mises.org/daily/1121

Gathering up your thegns and taking to the hronraede to deal out vengeance with fire and sword isn't exactly my idea of modern justice, but since you're citing the von Mises institute, you're probably not exactly modern.

EDIT: sorry for the Latinate words, but the meodsetla calls.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#324

Post by sabbatic13 »

janardanyri wrote: post #301
Kequc wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno man. I agree with you on that, of course you're right. But, people have limits not everyone wants to talk at length to a libertarian so mockery is employed.

In a public general-interest Internet conversation, when you reach the limit of your willingness to productively engage, it may be prudent to cease engaging.

I wouldn't write off mockery as unproductive. It's been an element of perfectly productive political discourse since the beginning of recorded political discourse. If done well and in an informed fashion, it ends up dispelling the illusion that any ignorant bit of pseudo-theory someone can conjure up is worthy of the public sphere.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#325

Post by AndrewKemendo »

exratione wrote: post #240
MartinCron wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't get this. If there isn't a monopoly on laws and law enforcement, does that mean that victims of crimes should be able to shop around to get the law enforcement agency that they want? Should the accused? Is there any historical precedent for anything like this actually working?

Iceland, in the age of the sagas, 1000-1300 or so. Here is a link to layperson's overview: http://mises.org/daily/1121

As a recovered misean this is literally the only thing that "anarcho-capitalists" can point to; a tiny period of poorly documented and singularly referenced history.

One data point, in a homogenous and relatively isolated region does not a grand idea make.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#326

Post by username223 »

baddox wrote: post #258
aaronem wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in the slightest, but the besetting flaw of libertarians is the belief that history has nothing to teach them save what they desire to learn, and that the existence of government, in one form or another, throughout recorded human history, implies nothing whatsoever regarding the viability of their particular flavor of utopianism.

Do you consider the history of government to be particularly positive? It doesn't seem that way to me.

You can take your pick of places to live without functioning governments. Most of them are probably uninhabited islands or starving regions in Africa, but it's up to you.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#327

Post by 27182818284 »

chasing wrote: post #106
MarkPNeyer wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for anyone who sees bitcoin as a 'wild west' environment, this sort of thing is obvious and just moves the bitcoin economy forward. problems found now are fixed, and won't be as big of a deal later.

But this isn't a beta test. People treat Bitcoin as if it's ready for primetime and ready to replace traditional currency.

I had a large reply written out for you, but then I realized it was just a long-winded way of writing "Risk Reward"

Yes, of course it is Risk/Reward. That's why people get into new things. Ocean travel wasn't ready for primetime, but if you came back with a ship full of gold and spices...

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#328

Post by mpyne »

baddox wrote: post #316
mpyne wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that "checks and balances" as designed into systems like the U.S. has worked better at mitigating this than the tribes-and-warlords systems that libertarians would want. It's one thing to complain about the government; I mean, you'd practically not be a red-blooded American if you didn't bitch and moan about the government. But providing options that are actually better should be a precondition for a switch to…

I don't advocate a "tribes-and-warlords" system. I advocate a polycentric legal system which I believe would be better (for the vast majority of people, according to their own judgement of "better") than government systems like the US. I also do not believe that checks and balances work as I presume they were intended to.

Wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, I know you're not in favor of tribes and warlords. My point is more that it is the effect you'd get.

As far as checks and balances I think it would be fair to say they are not working exactly as originally constructed. But that doesn't mean they're not working well, and it doesn't even mean that the original Framers would necessarily disapprove.

The government wasn't even 20 years old before the Supreme Court went off in a fairly original direction with Marbury v. Madison after all. Jefferson wasn't really sure he had the authority to complete the Lousiana Purchase (but did it anyways, small-government sympathies and all).

And it should go without saying that a strict interpretation of things like the Fourth Amendment would be hopelessly, hopelessly outdated in 2014 if it hadn't been for the principle of the Constitution itself being a "living document" with weasel words strewn everywhere just waiting to be reinterpreted at some point down the line.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#329

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

xenophanes wrote: post #152
zedshaw wrote: post #133

This is seriously the most hilarious thing I have read in a long time. Here we have a group of objectivist libertarians who believe that there should be effectively no laws other than the law of economics and self-interest who run an illegal website devoted to the pure greed of cashing in on contraband, and this is what they write: "I’ve included transaction logs at the bottom of this message. Review the vendor’s dis…

> objectivist libertarians There is no such thing as an objectivist libertarian. Maybe you should learn what you're talking about before hating. Objectivism and libertarianism are separate opposing things. The Objectivist position on libertarians is very negative.

Stalinists don't like Trotskyists either.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#330

Post by mpyne »

bmelton wrote: post #306
mpyne wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even the most staunch of minarchists wouldn't generally repeal the 'base' laws, which are those laws that, if violated, infringe upon the rights of others. Libertarians do not, for example, suggest that murder should be legal -- everyone has the right to life. The set of laws is not really the problem then. Literally everyone agrees that "government should be as small as possible", the problem is that no one ever a…

I don't necessarily disagree. It wasn't an attempt to assert that libertarianism is or isn't great, just that if Zed genuinely thinks that most libertarians don't consider 'theft' a crime, then he is badly mistaken. How close or far away Libertarianism is from more statist methodologies is outside the scope of the point I was trying to make, but if I were making a point, it's that yes, they are closer together than h…

Well I know it's hard to pin a single definition but I will say I've encountered "libertarians" who were really essentially an/caps and actually did envision a nearly lawless society running on some sort of free market (oh, and strong property rights, always strong property rights).

It's getting to the point that when one says they're a libertarian I'm not even sure what that means at first. :-/

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