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Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

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Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#331

Post by sabbatic13 »

tolmasky wrote: post #165
zedshaw wrote: post #133

This is seriously the most hilarious thing I have read in a long time. Here we have a group of objectivist libertarians who believe that there should be effectively no laws other than the law of economics and self-interest who run an illegal website devoted to the pure greed of cashing in on contraband, and this is what they write: "I’ve included transaction logs at the bottom of this message. Review the vendor’s dis…

I think you have a deep misunderstanding of libertarianism (which is your right of course). Libertarians don't necessarily not believe in laws, they simply don't believe in a monopoly of laws and law enforcers. This is kind of the whole point. Its clear that in your world view "justice" is somehow inexorably tied to government, but there others that disagree (which leads to your confusion in thinking that because som…

The problem with most libertarian beliefs is that they are very high-level and most attempts to apply and create a coherent system fail miserably. At their most useful, they can influence the current system to prevent certain undesirable excesses, but as an ideology, it's long on corrections and short on workable alternatives.

It's also the case that those fews well-informed and articulate libertarians who are engaged in politics never seem to be the ones who actually run for anything. Look at the Libertarian candidates for public office in the US over the years. Would you want a "ferret activist" as Lt. Governor of California? You could have had, complete with ferret in hand in his official election photo in the ballot handbook.

Libertarianism is an orientation and an armchair pursuit.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#332

Post by arg01 »

baddox wrote: post #302
tinco wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This libertarian polycentric government system is not like having multiple restaurants to choose from. To me it sounds like you're at one restaurant (the place you live at), and there's multiple cooks, instead of choosing they are going to decide what food is best for you (they all cook different kinds of poison food), and compete with each other over who gets to give you the food. If that's not how the libertarians…

I don't speak for all "libertarians," but the way I envision it is that it's precisely like restaurants. In other words, anyone can start a restaurant anywhere they choose that offers any services they choose with any restrictions (geographical, etc.), and any individuals can choose whether to pay for any services that are made available to them. Certainly some restaurants will only be available in certain regions, e…

The problem is when it comes to force. I've read a couple of libertarian leaning books after having similar conversations on HN and they all seem to believe that a monopoly won't spring up on force due to market forces and people wisely deciding to pay someone else to stop a company getting to large. It just seems naive, one of the key premises of the free market is that those who do a job better (cost/quality) grow (if they're scalable) because more people want to do business with them. When they have enough force they can leverage that to force to keep competitors out of the market and to force "customers" to pay them. It may not happen instantly but the system is unstable and it only has to happen in one geographical region for that company to have a strong source of income to pour into others to gain market share.

I do not see how this is any better than the admittedly imperfect current system.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#333

Post by TeMPOraL »

jrockway wrote: post #284
iguana wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

zedshaw being an asshole. I'm shocked, shocked!

How is he being an asshole? He is exactly right. Watching Bitcoin from a detached and neutral position is absolutely pure entertainment. "Hey y'all, let's make a web page for transferring money and drugs!" "But I'm not very good at programming." "No worries, there's CRYPTO!!!!!" "Oh excellent, we'll sure screw over our oppressive government now! Down with the rule of law!!" "Uh boss, someone just untraceably and anon…

Well, he might be right here and there, but he's still being an assohle, and it's not the first time we see him acting as one (I'd wager it's his most recognizable trait).

Being right and/or smart and/or recognized doesn't, and shouldn't, give one an excuse to be a dick.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#334

Post by Claudus »

jrockway wrote: post #284
iguana wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

zedshaw being an asshole. I'm shocked, shocked!

How is he being an asshole? He is exactly right. Watching Bitcoin from a detached and neutral position is absolutely pure entertainment. "Hey y'all, let's make a web page for transferring money and drugs!" "But I'm not very good at programming." "No worries, there's CRYPTO!!!!!" "Oh excellent, we'll sure screw over our oppressive government now! Down with the rule of law!!" "Uh boss, someone just untraceably and anon…

Theft can happen under any form of government, I'm not sure why you would think otherwise.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#335

Post by zedshaw »

kolbe wrote: post #200
zedshaw wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, Ted Bundy? The ultimate strawman slippery slope argument! Oh so good, all your defenses do nothing but point out the deeper contradictions in the statements. Seriously go back and read your replies to my replies. They're even funnier.

In the sense that we're actually laughing with him, yeah his is funnier.

Yes, you said it so it must be true, but when you read his comment you see that he's actually pointing out deeper hypocrisy in their statements. Most of them are so deeply flawed they can't be recovered.

But go ahead and demonstrate you don't think for yourself by laughing with him being wrong.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#336

Post by zedshaw »

redthrowaway wrote: post #228
zedshaw wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"they simply don't believe in a monopoly of laws and law enforcers" Ahahahahaah! That's the same as not having laws! And even then, what you're saying is they believe someone should bring this guy to justice...and then do nothing to him. Then it's not justice. You're killing me my friends. Just killing me here.

>Ahahahahaah!... You're killing me my friends. Just killing me here. You can make the same argument without being an ass about it.

It's funny how me pointing out the stupidity and bullshit of a group of criminals makes me an asshole...

But a guy who has actually lost people's money, put them at risk of reprisal from drug dealers, helped people (potentially young people) commit major crimes, enabled future addicts, and potentially is lying about the security flaw to steal all this money while spouting hypocritical contradictory statements...is a fucking hero.

Bravo! You win the ultimate hypocrite award of the century!

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#337

Post by mpyne »

DennisP wrote: post #223
zedshaw wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes he is! In fact he appeals to morality just about every other sentence. It's rather hilarious.

Libertarians have a strong sense of morality based on property rights. You might be thinking of anarchism.

Anarchism has a strong sense of morality based on communal rights. It's not strictly amoral (and in fact is very far from it).

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#338

Post by bmelton »

mpyne wrote: post #330
bmelton wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't necessarily disagree. It wasn't an attempt to assert that libertarianism is or isn't great, just that if Zed genuinely thinks that most libertarians don't consider 'theft' a crime, then he is badly mistaken. How close or far away Libertarianism is from more statist methodologies is outside the scope of the point I was trying to make, but if I were making a point, it's that yes, they are closer together than h…

Well I know it's hard to pin a single definition but I will say I've encountered "libertarians" who were really essentially an/caps and actually did envision a nearly lawless society running on some sort of free market (oh, and strong property rights, always strong property rights). It's getting to the point that when one says they're a libertarian I'm not even sure what that means at first. :-/

I've had that same discussion recently with my wife, when I think we were discussing Chomsky. In short, I agree, the 'libertarian' umbrella is a broad one, but I think it's as unfair to suggest that libertarianism seriously espouses lawlessness as it is to suggest that democrats espouse NSA spying. Sure, some democrats undoubtedly do, but it's by no means a core policy position.

As for the 'strong property rights' comment, you clearly haven't yet met a libertarian socialist[1]. ;-)

[1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#339

Post by kungpooey »

zedshaw wrote: post #181
foxhill wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is seriously the most hilarious response to a hacker news thread i have seen in a long time. it's got it all; > Here we have a group of objectivist libertarians wild conjecture? you bet. > who believe that there should be effectively no laws other than the law of economics and self-interest please, tell me, what else do they think? perhaps next you can tell me what i think, i'd love to hear it. > We need the gov…

Haha, Ted Bundy? The ultimate strawman slippery slope argument! Oh so good, all your defenses do nothing but point out the deeper contradictions in the statements. Seriously go back and read your replies to my replies. They're even funnier.

I don't mind assholes when they are smart and correct, but you're just being a dolt.

Re: Silk Road 2 Hacked, All Bitcoins Stolen

#340

Post by baddox »

username223 wrote: post #326
baddox wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you consider the history of government to be particularly positive? It doesn't seem that way to me.

You can take your pick of places to live without functioning governments. Most of them are probably uninhabited islands or starving regions in Africa, but it's up to you.

That doesn't answer my question. It's clear that essentially every society on Earth is organized by a government. I was asking if that has been a positive thing. Widespread does not imply positive.
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