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The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

codemanship.co.uk

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Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#51

Post by herge »

walshemj wrote: post #33
arethuza wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm having a hard time thinking of any downsides to professionalizing" Well, if you are a real professional then a complaint can result in your being struck off and it being legally impossible for you to work in that area again. I really don't see how (or indeed why) that model could be applied to general software development or why it would be in any way desirable. NB: It might be applicable in very small niche are…

It's actually very very hard to get struck off as a lawyer or a doctor.

But once you're persona non-gratta, it's impossible to get back into the good graces: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Glass

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#53

Post by arethuza »

walshemj wrote: post #33
arethuza wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm having a hard time thinking of any downsides to professionalizing" Well, if you are a real professional then a complaint can result in your being struck off and it being legally impossible for you to work in that area again. I really don't see how (or indeed why) that model could be applied to general software development or why it would be in any way desirable. NB: It might be applicable in very small niche are…

It's actually very very hard to get struck off as a lawyer or a doctor.

It depends what you mean by "very hard" - a quick google suggests that in 2012 over 40 doctors were struck off in the UK and I suspect that the number for lawyers struck off or where they had their firm closed would probably be rather higher.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#54

Post by Mvandenbergh »

rprospero wrote: post #28

Honestly, the reason that programming is getting a reputation for being easy is because it is easy. That's entirely the point of computer programming. If writing a program was harder than doing it by hand, we would just do it by hand. Honestly, any other profession would love to have it as easy as we have it. A surgeon doesn't get to mount the backup after a surgery fails. The engineers of the Mississippi river bridg…

Programming is easy in the sense that you can get huge results from modest effort. So a clever, hard-working individual can quickly build software much faster than that same individual can build a bridge.

The thing is, what actually happens is that this individual, working at their full capacity will produce much more software, much faster than they could bridges. That doesn't mean that their job is easier in practice, because in both cases the individual will stretch themselves to do the best they can.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#55

Post by MetaCosm »

corresation wrote: post #13

As he posits some may conclude, it does just read like bitter sour grapes...yet I've been professionally programming since 1995. Is someone casting their own lot as the lot of the world? http://www.theonion.com/articles/sociologist-considers-own-b... By and large I think having demonstrated skills in software development (and truthfully this means less that you can point to years of experience -- which may be 1 year…

Couldn't agree more (and wonderful link). The article was so disconnected from my reality as to be confusing.

(redacted probably irrelevant comment)

EDIT: Part of the reason for this confusion may well be cultural. I am a US developer, and have heard similar "I get no respect" type rants from Canadian developers... often shocked by the pay and respect they can demand just a bit south.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#56

Post by pessimizer »

netcan wrote: post #38
pessimizer wrote: post #11

Were we ever considered professionals? There's no test - all you have to do to be a software developer is declare yourself to be one. There's no overarching professional organization or boards, therefore incompetents aren't de-certified and national lobbying isn't coherent. In fact, the largest companies that we work for are frequently lobbying for things that programmers don't support, or actively damage our interes…

There are a bunch of reasons why strict membership would be problematic. First is the level of informal training that forms the basis for a lot of (good and bad) software developer's knowledge/ability. Certification favors some approved educational requirements. Second is the fact that professional certification is at its strongest when membership/non membership is a pretty decent indicator of competence. IE a certif…

Realtors certify through a moral test rather than a professional one. The test is simply a way to define a minimum standard, and a way to expel immoral incompetents.

http://www.realtor.com/advice/what-the-realtor-code-of-ethic...

Realtors established a code of ethics, and made one of the articles in the code to be competent and knowledgeable, and if incapable of a job to turn it down or refer it to someone who can do it. They enforce this with precedents establishing minimal expectations, which are as precedents are flexible as times change.

If your organization actively enforced a 'Programmer code of ethics', and programmers were facing expulsion for being fuckups, I think that's "likely to improve a client's chances that a project will be delivered and solve the problem its trying to solve."

The ultimate problem is that expulsion has to be a real punishment. You can do that through changing laws to make membership actually not voluntary, though it may still be nominally voluntary (like doctors, and lawyers), or to distribute resources for work through the organization (like realtors), or to simply refuse to work with organizations that use people who don't belong to the organization (like actors and stagecraft unions, for example) and to be large enough for that to make a difference.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#57

Post by rayiner »

pessimizer wrote: post #29
Havoc wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the freebies they get are so baked into government What exactly do you understand under freebies [for 100y+ prof org members]? Interesting point about the older prof members being both anti-union and but joining a prof body. I reckon the two have different functions though. e.g. In my case the only thing I hear from my prof org is messages with a "comply or else" tone. Sure they do set minimum salaries for apprentic…

>What exactly do you understand under freebies [for 100y+ prof org members]? Doctors, Lawyers, Realtors, etc. have written 90% of the state laws that they are governed under, and most of the federal ones. They've protected themselves against foreign competition, and shielded themselves against liability.

Without necessarily disagreeing with your point, it's interesting to note that software developers bear almost zero liability in practice for all the buggy software they write, while even big name law firms get sued, and lose, regularly on malpractice claims. If Microsoft was as "protected" from malpractice as lawyers are, they would've been sued out of existence for Windows 95/98/ME.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#58

Post by arethuza »

walshemj wrote: post #22
pessimizer wrote: post #11

Were we ever considered professionals? There's no test - all you have to do to be a software developer is declare yourself to be one. There's no overarching professional organization or boards, therefore incompetents aren't de-certified and national lobbying isn't coherent. In fact, the largest companies that we work for are frequently lobbying for things that programmers don't support, or actively damage our interes…

And what has the IEE done to raise the status for Engineers in the UK in last 100 years.

Don't you mean the IEE (now the IET) rather than the IEEE?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institution_of_Electrical_Engin...

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#59

Post by arethuza »

tjr wrote: post #41
arethuza wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm having a hard time thinking of any downsides to professionalizing" Well, if you are a real professional then a complaint can result in your being struck off and it being legally impossible for you to work in that area again. I really don't see how (or indeed why) that model could be applied to general software development or why it would be in any way desirable. NB: It might be applicable in very small niche are…

NB: It might be applicable in very small niche areas - safety critical systems etc. And such systems are certified (in various ways, depending on the exact nature of the system). It'd be a waste of time and energy to certify an iPhone game. So rather than certifying the software developer, certify the software, as needed. That way you can work on safety-critical jet software by day, and crank out cheesy, untested mob…

Out of interest, who certifies that kind of software?

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#60

Post by codystebbins »

So reading this it seems the primary argument against programming as a professional career is that entry level programming is becoming more accessible to a wider audience.

However I think the author fails to make the argument though that just because some 14 year old can learn JavaScript quickly with a service like codeschool, that means I could hire that kid to replace a senior level programmer with a deep understanding of design patterns, data structures, algorithms, etc. The claim to me states understanding a basic script is all you need to write large scale, complex software. I do not know about everyone else, but I picked up coding pretty quickly and picked up everything else about software over years of patient study so this seems suspect to me.

Software is not just about code, to focus on that makes our job look easy.

I also have some problems with the "credentials = professionalism" argument, but many others in the thread have addressed it.

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