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The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

codemanship.co.uk

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Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#31

Post by solidsnack9000 »

endlessvoid94 wrote: post #12

I totally agree with you. However, that doesn't mean it will stop. Imagine what it was like to be a scribe; you were a craftsman, who cared about the details of your work, had the intuition and experience to anticipate how your work would change in the future, and to understand subtle nuances lost on the illiterate. What happened to the scribes? As literacy matured, and became widespread, they were out of a job. And…

Scribes didn't become obsolete due to the spread of literacy. It was due to the printing press.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#32

Post by pessimizer »

BrownBuffalo wrote: post #25
pessimizer wrote: post #11

Were we ever considered professionals? There's no test - all you have to do to be a software developer is declare yourself to be one. There's no overarching professional organization or boards, therefore incompetents aren't de-certified and national lobbying isn't coherent. In fact, the largest companies that we work for are frequently lobbying for things that programmers don't support, or actively damage our interes…

Actually there is. If you are a software developer, you are skill laborer. If you are software engineer - you have the PE / FE exams. In some states its even illegal to call yourself a softare engineer (or [insert word here] engineer, without having an "engineering" degree. Secondly, the major problem to start out with is the proper business definitions / rules for which the software is designed for. Because software…

That's an example of the professional clout of engineers, not programmers.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#33

Post by walshemj »

arethuza wrote: post #24
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #18

Why do developers resist being professionalized? Are we really all so naive to think that the world will grovel at our feet for the rest of time? Fact is, it's extremely likely you've been taken advantage of, financially at some point, for your skills. It's an ugly reality, but I'm betting it has happened to a lot of people, or is happening. There are people who love nothing more than to take advantage of information…

"I'm having a hard time thinking of any downsides to professionalizing" Well, if you are a real professional then a complaint can result in your being struck off and it being legally impossible for you to work in that area again. I really don't see how (or indeed why) that model could be applied to general software development or why it would be in any way desirable. NB: It might be applicable in very small niche are…

It's actually very very hard to get struck off as a lawyer or a doctor.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#34

Post by Mvandenbergh »

BrownBuffalo wrote: post #25
pessimizer wrote: post #11

Were we ever considered professionals? There's no test - all you have to do to be a software developer is declare yourself to be one. There's no overarching professional organization or boards, therefore incompetents aren't de-certified and national lobbying isn't coherent. In fact, the largest companies that we work for are frequently lobbying for things that programmers don't support, or actively damage our interes…

Actually there is. If you are a software developer, you are skill laborer. If you are software engineer - you have the PE / FE exams. In some states its even illegal to call yourself a softare engineer (or [insert word here] engineer, without having an "engineering" degree. Secondly, the major problem to start out with is the proper business definitions / rules for which the software is designed for. Because software…

The issue is that you don't need to be chartered professional software engineer to get virtually any programming job. That isn't true for other engineering professions.

Most civil engineers are PEs and they often have to be to do their jobs legally. Mechanical engineers are often PEs. Electrical engineers doing electronics often don't bother (as it isn't legally required for most work) but EEs doing line-voltage and above design work usually have to be.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#36

Post by morganherlocker »

BrownBuffalo wrote: post #25
pessimizer wrote: post #11

Were we ever considered professionals? There's no test - all you have to do to be a software developer is declare yourself to be one. There's no overarching professional organization or boards, therefore incompetents aren't de-certified and national lobbying isn't coherent. In fact, the largest companies that we work for are frequently lobbying for things that programmers don't support, or actively damage our interes…

Actually there is. If you are a software developer, you are skill laborer. If you are software engineer - you have the PE / FE exams. In some states its even illegal to call yourself a softare engineer (or [insert word here] engineer, without having an "engineering" degree. Secondly, the major problem to start out with is the proper business definitions / rules for which the software is designed for. Because software…

> If you are software engineer - you have the PE / FE exams. In some states its even illegal to call yourself a softare engineer...

Is this actually illegal in any state, and is it actually enforced in any state? I would bet that 99% of people who have the title "Software Engineer" have not taken those exams, and most have a CS degree.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#37

Post by angersock »

thatthatis wrote: post #15
pnathan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think your history is really quite correct in its nuance. Programming as an actual trade emerged quickly in the 50s. The 60s saw the rise of computer science degrees, often coming from either the Math or the EE side. During the 50s and 60s, the computers had tons of people working with FORTRAN/COBOL (& others) to churn out business code. This accelerated in the 70s. There were armies of basic programmers out…

Thanks for the addition. I made un-researched generalizations based on limited knowledge of the skills possessed by the pioneers in the field. I agree that it has, at the least, nuanced errors. But, I try not to let the exact truth get in the way of a good story unless the exact truth is the crux of the argument.

"But, I try not to let the exact truth get in the way of a good story unless the exact truth is the crux of the argument."

The computer cares not for your platitudes. Fix your shit.

(More specifically, at least put some timelines on your milestones--you overlook, for example, a lot of computer early adoption by banks and insurance companies. A lot. See Burroughs et al.)

(These feel-good stories only serve to further undermine our profession.)

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#38

Post by netcan »

pessimizer wrote: post #11

Were we ever considered professionals? There's no test - all you have to do to be a software developer is declare yourself to be one. There's no overarching professional organization or boards, therefore incompetents aren't de-certified and national lobbying isn't coherent. In fact, the largest companies that we work for are frequently lobbying for things that programmers don't support, or actively damage our interes…

There are a bunch of reasons why strict membership would be problematic.

First is the level of informal training that forms the basis for a lot of (good and bad) software developer's knowledge/ability. Certification favors some approved educational requirements. Second is the fact that professional certification is at its strongest when membership/non membership is a pretty decent indicator of competence. IE a certified plumber will instal toilets that consistently flush downward. Will a certified software developer be more likely to improve a client's chances that a project will be delivered and solve the problem its trying to solve?

That said, I can't see a strong objection to a voluntary organization recruiting members and seeing if they can add some value somewhere. Hopefully they don't try to keep all the compilers to themselves.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#39

Post by walshemj »

fidotron wrote: post #6

London definitely has an exaggerated case of this (Nathan Barley really is far too close to home regarding the way he treats Pingu), but it's happening everywhere. The thing is it's like tax preparation: most people should probably be able to do it themselves, but once you want something interesting done you're going to need a professional. If all you develop as a software developer is monkey patching stuff together,…

At the silicon milkabout recently it was wall to wall macbooks and MBA's.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#40

Post by endlessvoid94 »

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #31
endlessvoid94 wrote: post #12

I totally agree with you. However, that doesn't mean it will stop. Imagine what it was like to be a scribe; you were a craftsman, who cared about the details of your work, had the intuition and experience to anticipate how your work would change in the future, and to understand subtle nuances lost on the illiterate. What happened to the scribes? As literacy matured, and became widespread, they were out of a job. And…

Scribes didn't become obsolete due to the spread of literacy. It was due to the printing press.

Good point. I guess I could pedantically counter with "the printing press enabled literacy". I don't think it changes my point too much, though :-)
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