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IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

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Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#91

Post by jimbokun »

PakG1 wrote: post #46

I have perhaps a unique perspective on this, as I was part of IBM in Asia and left in November 2013. I witnessed the 2013 layoff action and witnessed many good people in Australia and Singapore laid off in the name of cost-cutting. It is mentioned in the article that for this 2014 round, people with even PBC 1 and 2 were fired, which would have been the top performing people on their teams. I worked as a project mana…

"When the entire Domino team in Australia was let go (Domino is IBM's mail server) and replaced with a new, inexperienced, and untrained team in China, yet another colleague was again exasperated. Maintenance work that required only 6-hour change windows in her project became such that they needed 2 entire days because the new Domino team didn't know what they were doing. Again, it's not that the Chinese people were the problem. It's that IBM wasn't willing to pay to hire high-quality people, nor invest into training the people they did hire."

And that IBM decided to fire the people they had trained and knew what they were doing.

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#92

Post by kamaal »

smoyer wrote: post #5

I don't want to seem insensitive but ... The quote at the beginning of the article describes pretty much every layoff I've ever seen (or been through). The person quoted describes it as inhuman, but HR and managers are told to keep it impersonal (don't induce more crying than there is). You don't get notice (on purpose), you have to turn in company-owned property and they want you out the door (it affects the morale…

>>the severance and extended benefits are far more generous than any layoff I've been through here in the states.

May be true in the US. In India its peanuts. In fact its more like alms.

>> I'm not sure why employees in struggling business units don't recognize that THEY'RE PART OF A BUSINESS.

If that was true, lay off's would be top bottom hitting the leadership positions first.

That rarely happens. Layoffs are just a way to immediately turn the revenue equation in the positive trend buy cutting costs. That works for the next 2 months or so. By the third month every one knows cheap tricks like that create no difference at all.

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#93

Post by KumarAseem »

nailer wrote: post #40
dagw wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope jobs will re-emerge onshore later on. If by "onshore" you mean China, then you'll probably get your wish. Otherwise, probably not.

I've worked with 10 Indian employees that could easily be replaced with a single competent westerner (of any descent whatsoever) for 1/3 the price. I suspect I'm not alone.

And I have worked with 10 westerners who also can be easily replaced by 1 Indian who will do the work in a much better manner.

Just because you might have had exposure to some idiots does not mean you label the whole bunch as incompetent.

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#94

Post by crag »

pekru wrote: post #59
josefresco wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Let's say that again: as of 2013, there were still hundreds of mission-critical IBM internal applications running on physical hardware until I was given the project to transition them to virtual servers." Is this so shocking or even wrong ? I would expect a company with the history and size of IBM to have tons of "old" hardware/processes. In fact it's that history, perceived wisdom and entrenchment that I would assu…

Exactly. Cloud is not the silver bullet. But at the same time, there is not much merit in choosing to be a luddite and not use the capabilities of cloud where there's a genuine need. I feel IBM, to an extent is guilty of not pursuing things on the cloud front and is now paying for it.

"Cloud is not the silver bullet."

You can say that again. And it depends on where you are. In South Florida the cloud - well - sucks. Due to the carriers not being able to keep their networks up. I know companies who moved their PBX into the cloud (I'm going to name carriers) with Earthlink, Windstream, Comcast and ATT - misdirected, noisy (like talking in a wind tunnel), dropped calls; all classic signs of over extended networks. Latency. And you feel helpless cause all you can do is call your carrier and wait on hold for 45 mins.

I know another company, a local gym, which (the owner is a SOB so he deserved everything he got) got talked into moving his cash register into the cloud. I warned him against it. But he accused be of not being "up-scale". His way of telling me I didn't know what I was talking about. Of course, a couple of weeks later his Comcast goes down. He calls me, begging for help. I was like, "Nothing I can do. You have to call Comcast".

In South Florida, the only reliable service is fiber. Even T1's are fragile. And fiber isn't cheap.

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#95

Post by manishsharan »

If I had start-up capital , today I would have jumped on a plane to Banagalore. Regardless of the negative stories about Indian programmers, IBM does have some very talented and skilled people with a lot of experience and excellent work ethics. This being a massive lay-off and not a firing, the good and bad programmers alike have been let go. The interview process would have to be extra stringent and long and tedious, but you would end up with high quality people , who otherwise would never interview with a new start up. And after being let go from a blue-chip company, they would be more receptive of offers from early stage start ups.

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#96

Post by walshemj »

diogenescynic wrote: post #89
mjn wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the severance and extended benefits are far more generous than any layoff I've been through here in the states Interesting. Are big tech companies less generous than big engineering firms in other fields? When companies like BP, Boeing, etc. have had layoff rounds, 3 months is just about the minimum package for an involuntary termination, and it's common to first offer much higher voluntary packages to reduce headc…

The reason most large companies give 2+ months paid severance isn't because they are 'nice'--it's to get around the 60-notice period required when laying off more than X% of your work force (due to the WARN Act).

Typical assuming that all coutrys have the same laws as the USA.

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#97

Post by walshemj »

navman wrote: post #79
sspiff wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking something similar. 3 months partial pay also seems better than I would have expected in India. This makes me wonder, is this the first significant downsizing they experience in Bangalore? Did they think they were invulnerable to these kind of things?

Layoffs are not that common in Indian tech industry like here. So it is bound to affect the perception.

yes India's tech industry been in growth mode for decades - now they are facing what those in the developed world have been dealing with.

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#98

Post by Mvandenbergh »

crusso wrote: post #73
a3n wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They gave the most critical projects to this guy. He worked hellish hours to get a severely important project done, ... When he came back, he got his 2 weeks pay per year worked. And thus was the lesson learned by one more person. We are all, each and every one of us, hardware to be virtualized and eliminated as soon as possible. We are all, each and every one of us, an expense to be minimized. You may get along gr…

... because an anecdote about someone good being let go is data showing that that's the way it normally happens. ... because the person who was let go and who worked very hard didn't learn anything, didn't improve his ability, couldn't take the tremendous experience he had gained and apply it in a new job or gasp start his own enterprise. No, this isn't an anecdote that should serve as a red flag signalling IBM's con…

No, but it is an object lesson in being strategic in where and when you try. Go ahead and work long hours on projects that build your skills, that will make you look good to the organisation or to future employers (or clients), but don't do it out of loyalty.

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#99

Post by crag »

prof_hobart wrote: post #7
smoyer wrote: post #5

I don't want to seem insensitive but ... The quote at the beginning of the article describes pretty much every layoff I've ever seen (or been through). The person quoted describes it as inhuman, but HR and managers are told to keep it impersonal (don't induce more crying than there is). You don't get notice (on purpose), you have to turn in company-owned property and they want you out the door (it affects the morale…

I've been on the receiving end of a layoff like that,but I've also seen it done vastly differently. Our place has been through a couple of rounds of layoffs (as the result of outsourcing). Both went through lengthy - I'm talking months - periods of "consultation" where the company worked with employee reps to try to make sure the correct people were retained (both in terms of looking for opportunities for voluntary r…

When I left Kidder (an investment bank long gone) I got six months pay and benefits, a end-of year projected bonus based on my earnings for the firm from the prior year and a nice bottle of bubbly.

I even got a job. They were closing my department not down-sizing. My VP told me the firm didn't want to leave "blood on the street" (Wall Street). In other words, rep.

Now in 2008 this changed seriously. Cause banks were dropping over like flies. When Bear (Sterns) and Lehman failed it got worse. But I hear now it's back to worrying about "blood on the street".

None of this applied to the back-office staff. You got fired there, you got a few weeks and that was that.

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#100

Post by auctiontheory »

smoyer wrote: post #5

I don't want to seem insensitive but ... The quote at the beginning of the article describes pretty much every layoff I've ever seen (or been through). The person quoted describes it as inhuman, but HR and managers are told to keep it impersonal (don't induce more crying than there is). You don't get notice (on purpose), you have to turn in company-owned property and they want you out the door (it affects the morale…

the severance and extended benefits are far more generous than any layoff I've been through here in the states

Six weeks full salary is generous? You have worked for some very small or very cheap companies.

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