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IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

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Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do seem insensitive. Fuck their missed projections. Let all the managers quit for their failure. Did you look at the financials? Why are you pretending that you have the slightest clue what's going on in their business? If the employees were in charge like they ought to be, they could deal with their business properly and almost certainly avoid this fucking travesty. Tens of thousands of people losing their jobs…

Well yeah; that's the eternal issue generally; top managers are considered doing well because they dared to reorganized. That's great, but they also messed up; if they didn't there would be no need for the lay-offs; IBM is big; they can put those people to work in another division. So after the re-organization I would suggest the responsible managers are fired with a few weeks severance as well. That never happens th…

Who says they messed up? IBM sold their server business and Lenovo didn't want all the employees. IBM made money off the sale, IBM saves money not employing everyone anymore, profits and shareholder value.

For a variety of other layoffs, adding management punishment would make some sense. This one, not so much.

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#42
post #9
post #3

How many workers were actually cut?

According to article 'One analyst has estimated that IBM will cut 13,000 of its more than 434,000 workers'. Not sure how many (what percentage) is in India and how many are affected.

434 THOUSAND workers is incredible.

What you could you possibly do with so many people!

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do seem insensitive. Fuck their missed projections. Let all the managers quit for their failure. Did you look at the financials? Why are you pretending that you have the slightest clue what's going on in their business? If the employees were in charge like they ought to be, they could deal with their business properly and almost certainly avoid this fucking travesty. Tens of thousands of people losing their jobs…

This is exactly it. The people that are responsible never pay the price.

The people responsible for selling the business to Lenovo?

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#44

The 3 months of compensation mentioned here - is equivalent only to 1.5 months in any other country. So not overtly generous. I'm sure their employment contracts mention 1-2 months of salary in event of termination (or a similar notice period in case the employee wants to leave) - so this is not more than committed. (In India the "Base Salary" component is often 50% of FIXED compensation, not including bonuses. This…

1.5 months salary is still generous though, no?

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#45
post #39

The 3 months of compensation mentioned here - is equivalent only to 1.5 months in any other country. So not overtly generous. I'm sure their employment contracts mention 1-2 months of salary in event of termination (or a similar notice period in case the employee wants to leave) - so this is not more than committed. (In India the "Base Salary" component is often 50% of FIXED compensation, not including bonuses. This…

> The 3 months of compensation mentioned here - is equivalent only to 1.5 months in any other country. Why? 3 months of salary, to spend in India where things are relatively cheaper, seems like 3 months of Salary to me.

It's 3 months of 'basic pay', which would be half or less than half of the total salary. The rest is divided into so-called perks such as house rent allowance, travel allowance, education allowance, etc., which are partially tax-deductible for employees to various extents.

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#46
I have perhaps a unique perspective on this, as I was part of IBM in Asia and left in November 2013. I witnessed the 2013 layoff action and witnessed many good people in Australia and Singapore laid off in the name of cost-cutting. It is mentioned in the article that for this 2014 round, people with even PBC 1 and 2 were fired, which would have been the top performing people on their teams. I worked as a project manager doing datacenter/infrastructure work for IBM and was based in China. On my most recent PBC before I left, my manager gave me a 1, and I was managing a program for innovation projects in the Asia Pacific, as well as in charge of quality control work as part of IBM's global quality program called Global Delivery Framework (GDF). Project team members under me came from Australia, China, India, Malaysia, Singapore, South Korea, and Japan.

Firstly, it is not surprising that this is happening. The technology in the IT industry has changed, and IBM was late to the cloud party. We were still manually building servers for projects as of the end of 2013. I myself was put in charge of a large project to virtualize hundreds of internal IBM application servers. Let's say that again: as of 2013, there were still hundreds of mission-critical IBM internal applications running on physical hardware until I was given the project to transition them to virtual servers. They now have the ability to run stuff virtually thanks to some new hardware they've installed, but processes are still very manual. As I was leaving, I told all of my teammates to be careful and get out while they could, because as soon as IBM went full-steam into cloud, all of their jobs would get automated. It takes anyone a few minutes to get a server with applications running on a cloud service. At IBM, it took me a month because everything had to be installed and configured manually, and the teams were always so busy that you had to wait until someone was available to do their part, whether it was installing AIX, installing DB2, configuring monitoring agents, configuring backup agents, doing BAU handover checks, whatever. If you were IBM's execs, which would you choose? The writing was on the wall for a long time. And while elephants can take a while to get moving, it is true that they can eventually dance, though they can cause a lot of damage when they finally do get going (and need to dance more frenetically to make up for lost time).

Secondly and more importantly, it's sad that India was hit first in such a massive way, but it's not unexpected. I have nothing against Indian people and I think the situation is unfortunately more to do with IBM than it does with India. IBM was truly scraping the bottom of the barrel for their hiring, and in India, they went below the barrel in order to cut costs. It wasn't enough, as they went too far and hired too many people who were not capable of actually doing their jobs. I have plenty of examples, but we had sysadmins with senior in their titles that rather deserved to be labeled junior. My colleague beside me, a program manager of another program, turned to me exasperated when one of the Indian project managers in her program couldn't figure out how to fill out a project change request template. So the project manager wanted my colleague the program manager to fill out the form instead. Templates are there to make it clear what you're supposed to write. This level of incompetence was a trend, but I want to make it clear again, this is not the fault of the Indian people. This is the fault of IBM deciding to not have high standards. When the entire Domino team in Australia was let go (Domino is IBM's mail server) and replaced with a new, inexperienced, and untrained team in China, yet another colleague was again exasperated. Maintenance work that required only 6-hour change windows in her project became such that they needed 2 entire days because the new Domino team didn't know what they were doing. Again, it's not that the Chinese people were the problem. It's that IBM wasn't willing to pay to hire high-quality people, nor invest into training the people they did hire. As for why I think the issue of high/low standards is a bigger issue than technological change, I point you to an anonymous posting I made on Quora once. Being anonymous doesn't seem so important now. http://www.quora.com/IBM/What-are-the-weaknesses-of-IBM

I tried copy-pasting the Quora post here, but then HN told me that my comment was too long. :D

edit: clarification

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#47
post #5

I don't want to seem insensitive but ... The quote at the beginning of the article describes pretty much every layoff I've ever seen (or been through). The person quoted describes it as inhuman, but HR and managers are told to keep it impersonal (don't induce more crying than there is). You don't get notice (on purpose), you have to turn in company-owned property and they want you out the door (it affects the morale…

IBM has come a long way from "Employment for Life" which was one policy that almost killed it.

A couple things jump out on this article:

1 - One analyst has estimated that IBM will cut 13,000 of its more than 434,000 workers, based on the amount of money set aside for the rebalancing This is actually very few. Cutting 3% is hardly a rebalancing. Many companies cut double that every year as part of annual performance management.

2 - "Just heard from a colleague in Bangalore that job cuts there have begun. Workers asked to leave on the spot. He claims 6 out of 23 people in his department." If that's the biggest you can find, again it's hardly notable. If you're in a division that's being sold off because it's low margin, expect a lot more.

3 - The one thing that did surprise me is that they're cutting first in India. Is that because of political pressure? Cutting 3% of your headcount in India won't cut 3% of your payroll costs, because the resources are so much cheaper there.

My heart is out to anyone who gets surprised with a cut. It's painful, especially if you are early in your career and don't have a lot of money tucked away. In the medium term it can be very empowering. In the long term, I don't know of anyone who was laid off who didn't say, "Good riddance!"

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yeah; that's the eternal issue generally; top managers are considered doing well because they dared to reorganized. That's great, but they also messed up; if they didn't there would be no need for the lay-offs; IBM is big; they can put those people to work in another division. So after the re-organization I would suggest the responsible managers are fired with a few weeks severance as well. That never happens th…

Who says they messed up? IBM sold their server business and Lenovo didn't want all the employees. IBM made money off the sale, IBM saves money not employing everyone anymore, profits and shareholder value. For a variety of other layoffs, adding management punishment would make some sense. This one, not so much.

Like I said; not messing up would be making sure they have other jobs either at IBM or elsewhere. Not calling laying off 13000 people messing up sounds strange to me; you have a social responsibility here. People are not things you can discard when you don't need them anymore. If you have no other way, then ok, but IBM is not close to any kind of bankruptcy or situation like that.

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#49
post #46

I have perhaps a unique perspective on this, as I was part of IBM in Asia and left in November 2013. I witnessed the 2013 layoff action and witnessed many good people in Australia and Singapore laid off in the name of cost-cutting. It is mentioned in the article that for this 2014 round, people with even PBC 1 and 2 were fired, which would have been the top performing people on their teams. I worked as a project mana…

Sadly, I completely agree with you, and more specifically on the part about IBM going so low on the hiring process as to hire people that can not do their jobs. I would add that to add insult to injury, their level of english is terrible, to the point where many times you can not even understand what they are trying to say. This for both, India and China workers. Again, like you say, it is probably not the India and China people's fault, but IBM's own fault, either because they hired the wrong people, or they did not train the people they hired. By the way, IBM Domino is so much more than a mail server ;)

Re: IBM layoffs strike first in India; workers describe as 'slaughter' and 'massive'

#50
Um, what is happening in Syria is a slaughter, literally.

What is happening in India is mass layoffs, sad and unfortunate but "slaughter" ?

When AOL and other US corporations outsourced all the call centers to India in 2000-2010 , there were mass layoffs here too.

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