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The NSA’s Secret Role in the U.S. Assassination Program

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Re: The NSA’s Secret Role in the U.S. Assassination Program

#41
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of it is "seconds", it's all minutes or higher, and there is almost certainly at least a Colonel (20+ years experience), or a General, making the call. Every shoot probably goes through >20 people -- legal, various types of targeting, and technical/tactical "can the shot be made at all". The whole process is designed around getting approval for things like this rapidly. UAVs have many-hour loiter times, vs. comb…

Most everything you wrote makes intuitive sense, even for myself, with no military experience--which is why it is so hard for me to believe that many of the other comments in this thread are being made earnestly. Perhaps there is some philosophy at work that is just foreign to me? Even the basis of this article strains credulity--the authors editorialize that any reliance on signals intel is bad. Assuming that drones…

I think people are much better at evaluating whether the totality of a situation is good/bad, vs. why specifically that situation is bad.

There's no question much of the US response to 9/11 has been bad -- internationally (wars...) and domestically (perpetual state of war, civil liberties losses, etc.).

Articulating which changes, particularly technological, are good and bad individually is a lot harder. And it seems to be harder for people the closer they are to the situation emotionally.

Re: The NSA’s Secret Role in the U.S. Assassination Program

#42
I'm personally torn. It's asymmetric warfare. They didn't care about the thousands of innocents in the towers. If we let the Taliban regroup, another 9/11 is probable and the next strike (imo) will be at least a dirty bomb and possibly nuclear so I don't think we can afford to fight cleanly. You can be righteous as you want but if Manhattan gets nuked, the economic cost to the US is incalculable.

Re: The NSA’s Secret Role in the U.S. Assassination Program

#43
post #22
post #10

>>"The NSA geolocation system used by JSOC is known by the code name GILGAMESH. Under the program, a specially constructed device is attached to the drone. As the drone circles, the device locates the SIM card or handset that the military believes is used by the target." >>"The agency also equips drones and other aircraft with devices known as “virtual base-tower transceivers” – creating, in effect, a fake cell phone…

Within a few years you will probably be able to buy such a drone for $1000 on the internet. Everyone is going to want one.

The logical next step: finally we'll get practical, usable EMP guns. After all, it won't be murder to knock down a spy drone, and in many situations the drone operator won't even complain since their activity may have been of questionable legality in the first place.

Re: The NSA’s Secret Role in the U.S. Assassination Program

#44
There is plenty of precedent for strikes based on hunches and guesses. For example, they confirmed OBL was in Abbottabad only after killing him,

"no U.S. spy agency was ever able to capture a photograph of bin Laden at the compound"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Osama_bin_Laden

Re: The NSA’s Secret Role in the U.S. Assassination Program

#45
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Within a few years you will probably be able to buy such a drone for $1000 on the internet. Everyone is going to want one.

We're going to enter into an interesting new phase of spying and counter-spying efforts if drones-as-faux-cell-towers are widely available. "Citizens of [major urban area]. Do not use your cell phone, rogue foreign agents are spying on us with a drone cell tower. Please wait until further notice - the bogey will be shot down shortly." Or perhaps more likely: "All employees are advised to use landlines and encrypted c…

> drones-as-faux-cell-towers are widely available

I'm pretty sure you could find a VoIP-backhaul femtocell light enough to mount on a drone with enough battery to power it right now. They are used to provide cell service aboard ships.

Re: The NSA’s Secret Role in the U.S. Assassination Program

#46
post #12

“turns out I’m really good at killing people.” The president added, “Didn’t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.” Ironic words for a Nobel Peace Prize winner.

Another huge piece of news from this article: - "The [SHENANIGANS] operation – previously undisclosed – utilizes a pod on aircraft that vacuums up massive amounts of data from any wireless routers, computers, smart phones or other electronic devices that are within range." - "The operator describes how, from almost four miles in the air, he searched for communications devices" - "VICTORYDANCE, he adds, “mapped the Wi…

Sorry, we did know that was possible. It's well reported and obviously possible. Search even for amateur cantenna ranges and you'll see how far you can easily pull an SSID from (hint: many kilometres).

If the above was news to you, then get more worried: Google catalogues SSIDs versus GPS from hundreds of millions (billions?) of client android devices. Even ones that aren't logged in. This is why geolocation is fast with android devices. Unsure, but it's quite likely that Apple does the same.

Re: The NSA’s Secret Role in the U.S. Assassination Program

#47
post #42

I'm personally torn. It's asymmetric warfare. They didn't care about the thousands of innocents in the towers. If we let the Taliban regroup, another 9/11 is probable and the next strike (imo) will be at least a dirty bomb and possibly nuclear so I don't think we can afford to fight cleanly. You can be righteous as you want but if Manhattan gets nuked, the economic cost to the US is incalculable.

"In bin Laden's November 2002 "Letter to America",[3][4] he explicitly stated that al-Qaeda's motives for their attacks include: Western support for attacking Muslims in Somalia, supporting Russian atrocities against Muslims in Chechnya, supporting the Indian oppression against Muslims in Kashmir, the Jewish aggression against Muslims in Lebanon, the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia,[4][5][6] U.S. support of Israel,[7][8] and sanctions against Iraq.[9]"

To me, the current series events looks like this:

- U.S. Assisted or condoned a bunch of violence against muslims (including civilians)

- A group of radical muslim terrorists decided to retaliate with violence against U.S. civilians

- U.S. retaliates with a full scale invasion of the countries most likely inhabited by terrorists and proceeds to kill civilians through incompetence or lack of care

- U.S., unwilling to declare war against countries that aren't overtly hostile, proceeds to repeat killing of terrorists and civilians through incompetence or lack of care

I hate to say this because I by no means condone civilian deaths but the U.S. has been the one escalating this war and a dirty bomb or somesuch seems like a balanced (although by no means just) response to the actions of the U.S..

Just compare the numbers:

- American civilians killed by terrorists: 2977 [1]

- Middle eastern civilians killed during the Iraq invasion alone: 120,976 – 134,149 [2]

That's 40 middle eastern civilians killed for every American.

I think the longer this war continues, the more enemy combatants you're going to find and the more desperate and bitter they'll become. How many of these terrorists do you think are fighting against the U.S. out of insanity or blind religious fervour? I think the majority of them will have been created after seeing their families, friends and countrymen killed by western forces in their homelands and by continuing such strikes, you're only creating more of them.

I can't see any clean way out of this other than pulling out completely and trying to make amends for the atrocities the U.S. government has committed.

Now you're encouraging the U.S. to kill more of these people on the grounds that they might retaliate for the people you've already killed. Doesn't this seem wrong to you? The more people you kill, the more people are going to fight you.

Just think, pretend America was peaceful and didn't have a trillion dollar military. One day a few stupid Americans go and kill ~12000 Chinese civilians. China responds by launching a full scale invasion of the United States and kills over 480000 civilians, including a number of your friends and family at first you fear them. Over the years they start to get less discriminate because previously rational people have decided to take up arms against the aggressors. More and more of the people you know are dying around you because they were simply at the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe you're in a small town and half the people you know are killed by an indiscriminate robotic strike from above. Wouldn't even you be eventually pushed over the edge and want to start fighting back?

I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to say but it seems to me the problem with this was is that the U.S. is _creating_ the terrorists they're there to fight.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_September_11_...

[2]: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

//rant

Re: The NSA’s Secret Role in the U.S. Assassination Program

#48

Some unnamed source says that targets aren't double checked and that maybe innocents that have been lent a phone have been killed. This article is extremely light for such length.

I think the point of the article was how they are doing the data collecting and making the decisions (for which they provided statements from a named source as well as the leaked documents). The thought that targeting a 'cell phone/sim', as opposed to the actual person, could cause unexpected deaths seemed to be more of a 'logical next step' rather than a substantiated claim (although it has been shown elsewhere that…

> that unexpected deaths are happening with some frequency due to drone strikes/targeting

No doubt. The behaviour is extremely troubling, and the "collateral damage" should be considered war crimes IMO.

I'm doubting the authenticity of the source and that geolocation alone is being used for targeting, without any secondary confirmation. I find that very difficult to take at face value, although in our current climate I wonder why I should.

Re: The NSA’s Secret Role in the U.S. Assassination Program

#49
post #47
post #42

I'm personally torn. It's asymmetric warfare. They didn't care about the thousands of innocents in the towers. If we let the Taliban regroup, another 9/11 is probable and the next strike (imo) will be at least a dirty bomb and possibly nuclear so I don't think we can afford to fight cleanly. You can be righteous as you want but if Manhattan gets nuked, the economic cost to the US is incalculable.

"In bin Laden's November 2002 "Letter to America",[3][4] he explicitly stated that al-Qaeda's motives for their attacks include: Western support for attacking Muslims in Somalia, supporting Russian atrocities against Muslims in Chechnya, supporting the Indian oppression against Muslims in Kashmir, the Jewish aggression against Muslims in Lebanon, the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia,[4][5][6] U.S. support of I…

You're assuming innocent people like myself actually have a say in US foreign policy, so I guess middle eastern people should kill me? I hate US foreign policy, example 1, Cuban embargo, how's that working out? Or invade Iraq when we need forces in Afghanistan, so instead of 1 effective war, let's fight 2 ineffective wars. Guess what? I always vote against the sitting congress and I haven't voted for a sitting president. I have as much say an Iraqi. So yeah, kill me and see what it does.

Re: The NSA’s Secret Role in the U.S. Assassination Program

#50

some of the problem... Right now I get texts and voice mail from people attempting to contact the former owner of the SIM Identity I have..it happens any time you buy a prepaid phone..sometimes you get a previously owned SIM id.. Guess where this most active as far as buying a prepaid phone? Developing countries such as Africa and Middle East.. This is a very highly political volatile situation waiting to blow up in…

> This is a very highly political volatile situation waiting to blow up in a Presidents face. You have to look at this in the overall picture of military size and spending though as well. Since WWII, with a few blips, the size of our armed forces (in the US) has been slowly decreasing, while military spending has been increasing at a relatively steady rate (outside of actual war-time expenses) regardless of who is in…

Or maybe there will be a world war to reset the cycle, kill off tons of uppity civilians and let those that can reap astounding profits and lock down more control over the experience of the civilization we have...
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