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Girls and Software

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Re: Girls and Software

#301
post #192
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let see what findings the cited studies in the paper has to say: "teachers give boys greater opportunity to expand ideas and be animated than they do girls and that they reinforce boys more for general responses than they do for girls." (1994) "teachers who are made aware of their gender-biased teaching behaviors and then provided with strategies and resources to combat bias are better able to promote gender equity i…

I only challenged the idea that there's no (good) feminist research, or that there aren't "years of" it. When this stuff started is was much more contriversal than it is today (in most circles anyway). Progress is good :) And in case you misunderstood my point of view: I'm not advocating reverting to single sex education across the board. I'm saying that when there is documented bias (on the side of the educators and…

Before arguing about the benefit/costs of single-sex education, understand that I base my opinion not on this article but about the well established controversy surrounding single-sex education. For example, http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6050/1706.full show that single-sex education sacrifice social skill for improved test scores.

Since sexism and gender inequality is a social problem, I am not convinced that sacrificing social skills for test scores is the way to fix that social problem. It seems counter-productive.

ACLU for example argues that Sex-Segregated Schools causes increased sexism, and that it perpetuates antiquated gender stereotypes (https://www.aclu.org/womens-rights/sex-segregated-schools-se...). Again I have a hard time to see how more gender stereotypes helps in reducing sexism in programming.

Having single-sex education as "the solution" to sexism, is like having single-race schools as the solution to racism. The notion of "black and white schools" is a big part of race segregation and discrimination of the early 1900. I would prefer that the notion of single-sex school do not become the symbol of sexism in the early 2000.

Re: Girls and Software

#302
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that kind of research is interesting, but feminists are prone to jumping to conclusions. All sorts of things could happen in the classroom. For example, maybe boys raise their finger more often to ask questions (no idea, just an example). That could be a reason for "teachers giving them more time and space". No theory of discrimination necessary. Or maybe boys are dumber and need more help than girls - anothe…

> think that kind of research is interesting, but feminists are prone to jumping to conclusions. I'm afraid researchers in general are far to prone to jumping to conclusions. > As soon as they see any data that can be interpreted to support the presence of discrimination, the case is closed and no further inquiry is being made. That's not my experience with such research. On the contrary, there are usually a progress…

"That amounts to asking employers why they are breaking the law, which makes it a little tricky"

Maybe you haven't noticed, but you are already assuming that employers are guilty. That kind of thing is exactly what makes me speak out against feminist articles all the time, because there are so many unspoken assumptions.

What if they aren't and there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for them paying less to women? Are there even employers who pay their female employees less than the males? Perhaps it is rather a difference between companies? (Just examples). What if the women just work less hours than the men (which seems to be the case)?

I think the answer to the wage gap has more than just two parts.

Also I suspect most wage gap studies neglect to mention that women automatically get half of their husbands income.

Edit: to answer one of your arguments, women more likely to stay home because they have lower wages. What if they chose a profession with lower wages because they knew they'd be staying home anyway? Or maybe they chose a less paid, but more fun job, because they don't need to provide for the whole family?

You probably automatically assume it is a problem. But what if it is a privilege instead? What if instead of measuring "wage", we would measure "time spent with children and family"? See how you are being manipulated? Of course everybody may decide for themselves what they prefer (work or time with family), but it seems wrong to just assume those preferences for all of mankind.

I suspect a lot of feminists don't have children yet, so they don't even know what it means. To me, having witnessed my wife toiling in labor for hours, it seems ridiculous to send a woman right back to work after having given birth to her child. Of course she should have the privilege to spend time with her children - she sacrificed the most to have them in the first place. What makes me angry is if this privilege is then turned on it's head and the people who toil to make it possible (ie men earning the money to support the family) are then being blamed for it.

Again - everybody may choose their own preferences. I am just saying that the preferences we see today may not be completely arbitrary. Most people end up having children after all - nothing against the ones who don't want to have children, but they simply don't make a significant impact in the long run. They die, and then that's it.

Re: Girls and Software

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just the same the world has always been: boys/men are on their own, no handholding provided.

This is really the crux of it for me. Boys aren't coddled or soothed, they're expected to learn self-restraint, and expected to just get on with it. They're also expected from a young age to put up with being treated somewhat scornfully, so negative socialization has less of an impact. If we look at what VonGuard said of the boys he teaches [0], he said they 'go off ahead and get lost'. Note how this isn't shown as a…

I get what you say about coddling and framing, really. Kids raise to expectation and if you help girl every single time she struggle, she will never become self resilient and will never learn to solve problems. Got that.

However, how can one twist helping someone into "distributing own mistakes"? Seriously, that is beyond ridiculous. And going off ahead and get lost is also something entirely different then "they try extra hard to learn beyond their limits, even if it proves tough".

The point of daddy daughter programming time mentioned in those thread is to show the girl it is normal for her to spend time coding. Boys know it is "normal" for them to code. And actually, plenty of boys do tech stuff with their parents. It was always normal and usual to teach your son crafting and tinkering. When daddy needed to repair car or some furniture he would call his son to help.

It was not usual to teach the same to girl. The "daddy time" is just a call to extend the courtesy to girls too.

Small kids do try to conform to gender roles they see around. Girls and boys alike, we are all herd animals. Daddy time is an attempt to offset the message about her supposed abilities and likes the girl (but not boy) hears.

Re: Girls and Software

#304
post #79
post #13

I'm not sure I understand what the definition of "hacker" is in this article: > Young women don't magically become technologists at 22. > Neither do young men. Hackers are born in childhood, > because that's when the addiction to solving the > puzzle or building something kicks in to those who've > experienced that "victory!" moment like I had when I > imposed my will on a couple electronic primates. It seems to impl…

Other than the seemingly obvious benefit that one gets by starting earlier in life with something, it seems to be that it is a decently widespread attitude that if you didn't start programming when you were 12 or whatever, by some mystical voice that called you towards the terminal, than you will never be a good/great programmer (or "hacker"). Or, that you just aren't passionate enough, or else you would have inevita…

There's a big difference between a professional developer and a "rockstar programmer"; the latter may safely be assumed to have no sense of elegance, and to utter all sorts of atrocities in the process of building something that barely works as fast as possible and then moving on to the next thing, which is why I've found it quite feasible to make a living cleaning up after them. I see no reason why you can't do likewise; it's a more sedate professional life, but also a more satisfying one -- your "rockstar programmers" move on quickly because they don't dare to stand still for fear of their mistakes catching up with them, while the guy who solves those problems is always well favored.

Don't be fooled by propagandists of ESR's stripe or by bizarre little hothouses like the Silicon Valley startup scene! What counts in the software industry at large is not whether you call yourself a "rockstar" or a "hacker" or whatever else you like, but instead whether you are a professional with solid engineering chops. Concentrate on developing your professionalism and your professional skills, and you won't go wrong. All else is fashion.

(Don't equate "rockstar programmer" with "hacker", either. The former tend to view the latter as outdated Emacs-using neckbeards with no relevance to the real world; the latter tend to view the former as tiresome, barely competent children who wouldn't know good code or good tooling if they broke their nose on it. Which opinion is accurate, if any, is left as an exercise for the reader..)

Re: Girls and Software

#305
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically there was a time when a coding error could lead to physical damage to the screen, even the CPU or other electronics. Also ironically, breaking things is not only half the fun it's maybe 75% of the learning.

Read the VLC story. That time hasn't passed.

That wasn't VLC's fault, it was Dell putting a 10w sound card with a 7w speaker. It was a hardware problem.

Re: Girls and Software

#306
post #71
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree. Having unlimited access to technological resources is great, I don't think anybody is denying that. But with unlimited net access also comes extremely violent videos, social networks with all kinds of shady types hanging around etc... I really don't think it's responsible to let a 9-12 yo alone on the net in their room. Enabling them to access the net easily while still supervising what they do, giving…

> But with unlimited net access also comes extremely violent videos, social networks with all kinds of shady types hanging around etc... Those are all there in the real world, too. You can't protect kids from anything harmful or scary, nor should you. Stumbling across a porn or horror site is probably more traumatizing for the adult, anyway. It's like people have forgotten what it's like to be a kid! You've been told…

Really? Aside from rather extreme or contrived situations, the average person in the real world simply does not witness multiple graphic deaths or see thousands of women naked.

Can we at least consider that there might be a psychological impact of the fact that in one afternoon you can see more horrors and more nudity than 99.999999% of the world would have seen in a lifetime two decades ago? That there is so incredibly much disturbing content and porn on the internet that the expected reaction is "meh", followed by moving on to yet more violence and porn? That there is so much porn that the craziest fetish you can imagine probably doesn't just exist online, but has an entire website dedicated to it?

It is not just a difference of quantity either. The internet trains you to just move on from things which would have been life-changing events had you witnessed them in the real world pre-1990. Do you really think seeing a picture of a mass grave on the internet is the same as seeing one in real life? Do you think even seeing one in real life now is the same as seeing one in real life before it was possible to just ask the internet for thousands of pictures of one?

In any fair comparison, the internet is absolutely nothing like real life.

Re: Girls and Software

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I became a teenager, I got wind that it wasn't something "cool" and got spooked. For someone as insecure as I was, having a hobby that I couldn't really "explain" to normal people was embarrassing. When I was a teenager, coding or being technical in general wasn't cool either, and most of the people who were involved were or at least seemed insecure and embarrassed. Perhaps the climate in middle / high schools h…

The reproductive system in its uncivilized state is a winner-take-all system; polygyny is much more common than polyandry. As such, it is not enough to be in the middle of the pack as a man; one must excel. Guys are more tolerant of low social status the way that ML algorithms ignore noise: they're hoping that those currently at the top of the pack are at a local maximum, and they're willing to tolerate being low-sta…

Two points:

Let's not bring pop-evo-psych into this unless you're going to post a pile of references to white papers backing up the assertions.

A link to a pickup artist's blog does not increase the quality of your statements.

Re: Girls and Software

#308
Very interesting article.

The problem I have with the particular form the tech-feminist crusades have taken is that it seems to me to be diversionary at a fundamental level. Women are not just under-represented in tech, but in the majority of the most lucrative professions as a whole. So, unless we accept the bogus argument that women are just naturally worse at stuff other than babies, we must assume that this is a problem with society as a whole (the dolls-versus-lego thing is a part of that, but not the only one).

Women-only classes and so on may or may not help the particular women involved into the industry - I don't know. Presumably that can be empirically studied by people with the time and resources to do so. But the underlying problem is a matter for 'concerned citizens', not the tech industry as the tech industry.

Crusading, say, for 'codes of conduct' at conferences has the seductive appeal of a modest and realisable goal; unfortunately, there is no nice, pat answer to gender inequality in society, as the last three centuries of 'concerned citizens' have learned. To put it bluntly, it's not dick jokes at PyCon keeping women out, any more than it's dick jokes at law school that produces the gender gap in law firms.

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