Girls and Software • Hacker News Board

Re: Girls and Software

#271

Post by rimantas » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 8:43 AM UTC

archagon wrote: post #219

archagon wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I saw a ton of stuff I never should have seen at that age. It didn't scar me for life, but it's desensitized me to a lot of terrible things. Unless you're a doctor, I just don't think it's healthy to look at NSFL gore, go "meh", and move on to something else. I also occasionally have those images flash in my head. I don't want them there, but there's nothing I can do about that now. (Granted, the same thi…

PS, I don't care what you believe, but please don't downvote just because you disagree with something. It's passive-aggressive and it ruins communities. Use your words. (This was in response to my comment getting downvotes.)

Does the same apply to upvotes? If not, why?

Re: Girls and Software

#272

Post by SomeCallMeTim » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 8:45 AM UTC

simias wrote: post #56

superuser2 wrote: post #12

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

I don't agree. Having unlimited access to technological resources is great, I don't think anybody is denying that. But with unlimited net access also comes extremely violent videos, social networks with all kinds of shady types hanging around etc... I really don't think it's responsible to let a 9-12 yo alone on the net in their room. Enabling them to access the net easily while still supervising what they do, giving…

>I may be a bit bias because while I consider myself a hacker I didn't have the net before I was 18 at home.

I'm a hacker and "the net" didn't exist before I was 18.

My learning came from the books I bought, and the magazines I subscribed to. Somehow, without IRC or Google to help, I taught myself to program a computer, and wrote an entire game in assembly language (reinventing the concept of linking object files in the process) which I then sold. While I was in high school. I also designed and built an expansion board for my computer with only the IC technical manuals.

By college I was doing real video game consulting work.

I had one awesome friend who was also a good programmer, and we lived and breathed programming together. But beyond that, I was on my own.

It can happen without unfettered Internet access at 9 years old.

Re: Girls and Software

#273

Post by DanBC » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 9:07 AM UTC

gruseom wrote: post #190

VonGuard wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't. It's Java. It's like a kid asking you to build a car engine from scratch day one. We kindly point them to our Scratch class as a way to learn how to program.

Well, I'm glad I didn't come to the wrong conclusion. It's too bad, though, because Minecraft modding got this kid really excited, and there are many (maybe millions) like him. It seems like it could be a really fruitful area for work. Actually, when I was looking through stuff for him, I found a project that implemented Minecraft bindings for JavaScript with the aim of creating a friendly environment for kids. The a…

It is a shame that Minecraft modding is so horrific because, as you say, it would be a very powerful motivator to get young people involved in programming.

Even the RPi Minecraft appears to lack information about modding:

http://pi.minecraft.net/

Re: Girls and Software

#274

Post by archagon » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 9:09 AM UTC

rimantas wrote: post #271

archagon wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PS, I don't care what you believe, but please don't downvote just because you disagree with something. It's passive-aggressive and it ruins communities. Use your words. (This was in response to my comment getting downvotes.)

Does the same apply to upvotes? If not, why?

Perhaps, but I think the bigger issue is that downvotes can make your comment illegible. If you spend any time on Reddit, you'll know that the vote system pushes down any comments that go against the grain and reinforces the echo chamber effect. Upvotes can do that too, but to a lesser extent.

Personally, I much prefer linear discussions with hidden favorites, like Metafilter.

Re: Girls and Software

#275

Post by jaimebuelta » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 9:17 AM UTC

krstck wrote: post #128

jseliger wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I became a teenager, I got wind that it wasn't something "cool" and got spooked. For someone as insecure as I was, having a hobby that I couldn't really "explain" to normal people was embarrassing. When I was a teenager, coding or being technical in general wasn't cool either, and most of the people who were involved were or at least seemed insecure and embarrassed. Perhaps the climate in middle / high schools h…

> what makes many boys persist in their uncool, embarrassing, low-ish status activity? I've wondered this myself! Perhaps archetypes of nerdy boys that grow up to be successful and respected adults are/were more readily available? I still think of a stereotypical "nerdy girl" as being really into literature or history, as opposed to building computers.

Because is something they like?

Re: Girls and Software

#276

Post by elohesra » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 9:24 AM UTC

facepalm wrote: post #63

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #42

> Last year, his school offered a robotics class for girls only. When my son asked why he couldn't join, it was explained to him that girls need special help to become interested in technology, and that if there are boys around, the girls will be too scared to try. And that's why we can't use sexism to fight sexism (or mistakenly enforce the same composition of the general population on self-selected subsets).

It's just the same the world has always been: boys/men are on their own, no handholding provided.

This is really the crux of it for me. Boys aren't coddled or soothed, they're expected to learn self-restraint, and expected to just get on with it. They're also expected from a young age to put up with being treated somewhat scornfully, so negative socialization has less of an impact. If we look at what VonGuard said of the boys he teaches [0], he said they 'go off ahead and get lost'. Note how this isn't shown as a positive trait (e.g. 'they try extra hard to learn beyond their limits, even if it proves tough'), but instead as a negative trait, as a problem they've put themselves into. Note how the girls in his example are shown as being cooperative by helping one another, rather than the more uncharitable explanation being offered: they're not brave enough to own their own mistakes, so instead try to distribute them across a group.

I remember this exact same rhetoric all throughout school. It's frankly unsurprising therefore, that more boys are more comfortable doing something that leads them to be ostracized, or to become a target. It's also unsurprising that more boys are happy to enter tech, where you're expected to constantly teach yourself without others helping you. For all the VonGuard's and the education system's suggestions to the contrary, working together and being cooperative isn't sustainable in a professional programming environment where you have to be comfortable with constantly keeping yourself up to date with changes in tech.

Frankly, the actual solution to the 'girls in tech' problem is going to be one that few pseudo-feminist social justice warriors will actually want to bear: stop attempting to blame conspiracy theories for the low levels of women in tech, and start raising girls in the same harsh ways as boys. I hear a lot of 'daddy daughter programming time' being mentioned in threads like this, but for the life of me I can never remember the 'daddy son programming time' that lead me to become a programmer. I can only remember no-one giving a shit about me learning to program until it started paying lots of money and achieving results.

[0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7207075

Re: Girls and Software

#277

Post by mtrimpe » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 9:37 AM UTC

Crake wrote: post #239

mtrimpe wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is though that she is in a very rare, privileged position. She liked her community, fit in well, felt protected and cared for, wasn't troubled by the gender ratio and all in all was just happy with her situation. For a very large amount of women that is unfortunately not the case nowadays and unfortunately her situation is not typical in the slightest and I didn't see much actionable advice to improve on th…

>Ever since that generation the gender gap has been widening Well, it might have something to do with the huge emphasis on judging people based on their gender that the feminists and sjws have been shoving down everyone's throats lately. Seriously, she doesn't like the increasing number of women only events because they make it harder for women (at all stages of their careers) to be accepted like everyone else. Surpr…

> These sexist policies are making my life WAY more difficult. I'm jealous of people who got to experience tech before it got popular enough to become a target for feminists

And I feel sorry for you for that. It's always painful when a subculture you feel at home in enters common culture and moves itself out of your comfort zone in the process. I'd feel even more sorry for you though if your sphere of empathy wouldn't ever expand to include the more feminine geeks that currently don't feel welcome in our industry.

The author of the story wrote this from a good heart and a desire to say the right thing and get people to skip all those frustrating awkward stages in between but unfortunately I'd say that is as useful telling someone who's stressed to just relax: it might even work for some people but if you really care about the outcome relying only on this tactic leaves a lot of room for improvement.

That's why I will continue to do what I feel is best to make our industry more inclusive. The simple fact that we're having this discussion here is made possible by people like me who've repeatedly criticized pg for letting gender issue stories be flagged off the front page so easily and I'm grateful for having played a small part in that small change.

As a genderfluid person from the same generation as the author it's truly a breath of fresh air for me to see thoughts and perspectives I've always had discussed out in the open. I for one feel more at home in the industry already through this all. If it's like that for me, someone who can at least always choose to pass as male, then I'm sure many women feel the same and as far as I'm concerned that's a good thing worth fighting for.

And yes, I acknowledge that will make things harder for you, the author and her son. I believe though that an industry where everyone feels welcome regardless of gender, which just isn't the case right now and hasn't been for a long time, will be worth every ounce of sacrifice it takes.

> Any given feminist will happily claim to be the voice of all women everywhere.

That's a rather dubiously broad statement; but if that happens then call them out on it. Improve the discourse. Ask them if they want to feel the pressure of having their every action represent their entire gender. If they say no then remind them they shouldn't be speaking for their entire gender either.

Re: Girls and Software

#278

Post by S4M » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 9:48 AM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #218

mattmanser wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I almost posted exactly the same post as simias earlier, your post worries me a bit as you don't seem to understand there's been generations of hackers who had no internet access. I learnt programming on my school computers in lunch times and on a graphical calculator. I really didn't have much interest in programming at home. It almost feels like you didn't read the article, the author talks about more generic probl…

> I learnt programming on my school computers in lunch times and on a graphical calculator. I really didn't have much interest in programming at home. I did the same. My interest in programming actually started to decrease as my access to the internet increased. This was, however, in the mid-90s, when there weren't the big online communities that there are now.

Exactly the same for me. Internet can act as a big distractor sometimes.

Re: Girls and Software

#279

Post by jaimebuelta » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 9:55 AM UTC

dev1n wrote: post #67

Growing up watching shows like "Dexter's Laboratory" and "Jimmy Neutron Boy Genius" definitely shaped me as a child into the tech freak I am today. Girls getting barbies thrown at them when they are 12 does not help put girls into the tech sector. We need television shows like "Diane's Laboratory" or "Jennifer Neutron Girl Genius" to get girls interested in tech. Hit 'em when they're young.

I am not totally sure about the "representation" thing, meaning that you need a role model to like something. I clearly did not have any role model that I can look at to play around with computers on the TV (I'm not young)

I think that the inner motivation to be a hacker or programmer comes from liking to know how things work, and how to build stuff. I remember dismantling and reassembling my toys when I was a small kid. If we are able to give a try to kids that feeling (which it was extremely satisfying to me), we may "lure" more people with potential into tech. If we teach that tech is cool, that nerdy t-shirts are amazing, and you'll make a lot of money, we are spreading the wrong ideas, something that will deviate the focus from "what's really tech about" with "perks around being in tech". People that are attracted for those "perks" will never be truly happy and probably, will never be good professionals.

Re: Girls and Software

#280

Post by auggierose » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 10:15 AM UTC

donaq wrote: post #221

"Young women don't magically become technologists at 22. Neither do young men. Hackers are born in childhood..." Nitpick: I actually only started learning to program in university as an undergraduate (I was ~21). I have a female friend who had a similar start, so you don't necessarily have to start as a child. It's not gymnastics. The thrill of solving puzzles can be experienced at any time in your life, I think. Oth…

I don't like solving puzzles. Something that was put together by somebody else, for the sole purpose of you trying to figure out what it was. How stupid. It's for people who believe in god.