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Girls and Software

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141–150 of 434 posts

Re: Girls and Software

#141

Post by jiggy2011 »

jseliger wrote: post #110
krstck wrote: post #51

Oooh, this was an icy stab right at the core. She's completely right: >Dump her in a situation that operates on different social scripts than she's accustomed to, full of people talking about a subject she doesn't yet understand. Then tell her the community is hostile toward women and therefore doesn't have enough of them, all while showing her off like a prize poodle so you can feel good about recruiting a females T…

When I became a teenager, I got wind that it wasn't something "cool" and got spooked. For someone as insecure as I was, having a hobby that I couldn't really "explain" to normal people was embarrassing. When I was a teenager, coding or being technical in general wasn't cool either, and most of the people who were involved were or at least seemed insecure and embarrassed. Perhaps the climate in middle / high schools h…

Hard to say for sure, when I was in school I felt like I was banking on technology becoming cooler over time which does seem to be the case.

There's also less pressure on men to settle down early. A man can more easily think "fuck it, I won't start dating until I'm 25 by which time I'll be successful, drive a nice car and be an eligible bachelor".

With the whole biological clock issue women are often hoping to be married and starting a family by that age or risk being seen as the archetypal "cat lady".

Re: Girls and Software

#142

Post by aragot »

japhyr wrote: post #19
superuser2 wrote: post #12

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

> which I was free to break (software-wise) I'm curious, were you on a linux os? Did you break your software often? It seems to me people who get on linux early might have an easier time, because they can so easily break their system and rebuild it. It seems like a kid who breaks a windows/ mac os might need to go to their parents to deal with license keys, which might cause the parents to say "no more hacking".

> were you on a linux os? Did you break your software often?

MS DOS here. And fdisk could do a lot of harm to a HDD. Especially when you don't understand English.

Re: Girls and Software

#143

Post by belorn »

marquis wrote: post #97
krstck wrote: post #51

Oooh, this was an icy stab right at the core. She's completely right: >Dump her in a situation that operates on different social scripts than she's accustomed to, full of people talking about a subject she doesn't yet understand. Then tell her the community is hostile toward women and therefore doesn't have enough of them, all while showing her off like a prize poodle so you can feel good about recruiting a females T…

That's the reason why classes for girls (not necessarily primarily but directed towards) work so well. Being in a room full of men with few or no women in ANY circumstance is awkward unless you are top of your game.

Any source for your claim? Is classes for girls better in producing hackers, ie, someone who is passionate about programming to the point of both work and hobby?

I sincerely doubt it, but feel free to prove me wrong.

Re: Girls and Software

#144

Post by HedgeMage »

mistakoala wrote: post #60

I groaned at what sounded like another SJW article on 'teh evil patriarchy of technology'. I'm glad I read on for an interesting and original viewpoint. More Susan Sons' and fewer Adria Richards', please. The former have meaningful and constructive contributions to make while the latter just make political hay for their own self-interest. As a learner, the perception of an increased emphasis on identity politics is o…

"...increased emphasis on identity politics is off-putting to me...because it's shifting attention away from the interesting stuff - the stuff that makes tech fun and interesting in the first place."

This. This. A thousand times this.

Re: Girls and Software

#145

Post by erichocean »

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #124
dchichkov wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Young women don't magically become technologists at 22. It depends. There is no strict requirement onto starting at the early age. Yes, there is a correlation, but no strict requirement. I knew someone, who had really started coding only at around 22, after she had finished a computer science / engineering degree. She was not a tinkerer/nerd, just a regular bright girl, her dad was not an engineer [was an architect…

It depends. There is no strict requirement onto starting at the early age. Yes, there is a correlation, but no strict requirement. You'll be excluded by 22 if you haven't started early. Excluded by whom? By nature. It was no accident that Zuck developed Facebook only after years of being a hacker, and that he also developed it while he was relatively young. By 22 you start to take on responsibilities which hinder you…

Well, maybe I am an outlier, but I didn't start programming until I was 20, and didn't seriously get into it until I was 24 (i.e. actually shipping something).

And I sure as hell don't think Zuck is "better" at tech or being a hacker than I am. Luckier, perhaps, but not better. I guess we'll see.

Also, I was married at 19, and a year later was a father. By 24, I had two children with a third shortly thereafter. So I definitely had the whole "lots of responsibility" thing dynamic, and while I do agree it slowed me down relative to what I could have done if I was single, it wasn't fatal and didn't stop me from learning, or becoming good at what I'm doing.

But again, I'm probably an outlier.

Re: Girls and Software

#146

Post by HedgeMage »

dev1n wrote: post #67

Growing up watching shows like "Dexter's Laboratory" and "Jimmy Neutron Boy Genius" definitely shaped me as a child into the tech freak I am today. Girls getting barbies thrown at them when they are 12 does not help put girls into the tech sector. We need television shows like "Diane's Laboratory" or "Jennifer Neutron Girl Genius" to get girls interested in tech. Hit 'em when they're young.

For my son, it was "Johnny Test" and "Phineas and Ferb", the latter being one of the most well-done bits of hacker/maker propaganda I've ever come across. Amusingly, all the scientists/engineers in Johnny Test that aren't creepy villains are girls (Johnny's twin sisters and occasionally friends). My son had no problem looking up to them anyway.

I got a certain amount of crap from others for "letting" him be so into a girl thing, and I remember getting crap as a kid because most of the figures I looked up to are men. Is it hypocritical of me to be both frustrated by the lack of stuff about girl techies and irritated that our society pushes kids to pick such things only from same-gendered examples?

Re: Girls and Software

#147

Post by Wintamute »

Blimey this piece is spot on. It manages to basically sum up many of the wordless, un-expressed proto-opinions I have on on the matter into one incredibly coherent package. Lucid, rational and heart felt - great discourse.

Re: Girls and Software

#148

Post by HedgeMage »

scott_s wrote: post #90
gruseom wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this behavior will be exhibited at a very young age, or not at all That's so obviously false that I doubt she's saying it. I suspect it's more like: these qualities tend to come up in childhood, so if we want to see more of them, that's where we should focus. Everything about your comment ("I figured out HTML on my own") makes me bet you that had these qualities in spades as a kid long before you had a computer. Al…

What I'm trying to describe is the "by 20, it's too late to make a hacker" sentiment, which I do hear people say. So if I did have these qualities, and we're going to identify them after we've already established that I am a hacker, then it must be true that lots of other people also have these qualities, but did not become hackers. My point: the notion that good hackers must be hacking on, and tinkering with, comput…

Actually, I made it a point to explain that it doesn't have to be computers...

"Even if they lacked computers, they were taking apart alarm clocks, repairing pencil sharpeners or tinkering with ham radios. Some of them built pumpkin launchers or LEGO trains."

There are many early maker/hacker experiences that don't require access to or interest in computers. The point was that, at some point early on, every hacker (maybe there's an outlier or three, but I'd be shocked if there were twenty) had some experience digging in and building or fixing or changing something.

For me, it started a long time before my exposure to computers. I grew up in a rural area. As early as toddlerhood, I was learning to cook, sew, make candles, weave on a loom, etc. I was making as early as I could hold things and be relied on to keep them out of my mouth. It never occurred to me to throw something away without trying to fix it first, because if something broke, my parents would fix it, and I'd watch or help.

It's not about computers and youth, it's about making/fixing/tinkering and youth.

Re: Girls and Software

#149

Post by kaybe »

superuser2 wrote: post #12

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

I'm really curious, why do you think it would be different for a daughter?

Re: Girls and Software

#150

Post by sillysaurus2 »

erichocean wrote: post #145
sillysaurus2 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends. There is no strict requirement onto starting at the early age. Yes, there is a correlation, but no strict requirement. You'll be excluded by 22 if you haven't started early. Excluded by whom? By nature. It was no accident that Zuck developed Facebook only after years of being a hacker, and that he also developed it while he was relatively young. By 22 you start to take on responsibilities which hinder you…

Well, maybe I am an outlier, but I didn't start programming until I was 20, and didn't seriously get into it until I was 24 (i.e. actually shipping something). And I sure as hell don't think Zuck is "better" at tech or being a hacker than I am. Luckier, perhaps, but not better. I guess we'll see. Also, I was married at 19, and a year later was a father. By 24, I had two children with a third shortly thereafter. So I…

Since we're on the topic of unpopular-but-true, I'll go ahead and post another: It's not about whether we can program so much as what we can accomplish by learning to program while we're young. You and I may make fine and capable employees, but some want more than that. It takes more than just ambition: it takes positioning and luck. I hope it won't be too controversial to say that younger people can take more risks due to the fact that they're young. Therefore they will take advantage of the lion's share of the luck.

In other words, if we were willing to sacrifice our dependents to take more shots at the type of success which attracts people to YC, then we'd be in the same position as someone who was young. But we aren't willing, so we're not in that position.

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