Live data from Hacker News

Girls and Software

linuxjournal.com

81–90 of 434 posts

Re: Girls and Software

#81
post #64
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to me the author vividly conveys what she means by "hacker" in the very paragraph you quoted: technologist addiction solving puzzles building things "victory!" moment impose will on electronics These things are done and felt for their own sake and not as a means to an end, like a paycheck. Perhaps that's the main difference.

I think she also implied that this behavior will be exhibited at a very young age, or not at all. (Which jt2190 also points out below.) She's not the only one to imply this - or outright say it. That always gives me pause, because it does not describe me. My family did not have a computer until I was 16. I figured out HTML on my own, but no programming. I took a programming course in high school, but it was rudimenta…

> this behavior will be exhibited at a very young age, or not at all

That's so obviously false that I doubt she's saying it. I suspect it's more like: these qualities tend to come up in childhood, so if we want to see more of them, that's where we should focus.

Everything about your comment ("I figured out HTML on my own") makes me bet you that had these qualities in spades as a kid long before you had a computer. All this existed before computers, after all. I remember Jerry Weinberg saying that he knew he wanted to devote his life to computers from the day Time Magazine ran a futuristic cover story about them in the late 1930s. Another farm kid, as it happens. He went to college to study computers and found they didn't exist yet, so he majored in physics and bided his time until programming became a thing.

I wonder sometimes whether any of this is about childhood per se or the fact that children are more likely to do things out of play, to figure stuff out, see what will happen, and so on. If that's it, then we can dispose of the controversy by agreeing that people who come to programming purely as a career or (god forbid) for status will do worse not if they're too old, but if they're too uncurious.

Re: Girls and Software

#82
post #77
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree. Having unlimited access to technological resources is great, I don't think anybody is denying that. But with unlimited net access also comes extremely violent videos, social networks with all kinds of shady types hanging around etc... I really don't think it's responsible to let a 9-12 yo alone on the net in their room. Enabling them to access the net easily while still supervising what they do, giving…

I'm on the fence. I think it's a matter of age, and being able to follow on damaging content/encounters. My kid if too small to go around the web yet, but I have the feeling there will be a point where as parents my wife and I will need to let him do what he wants without asking us anything, but we keep the ability to check the logs of everything he accessed with any device in the house It means being able to have re…

The litmus test:

Is it okay for you to force your child to wear a wire to school? Is it healthy to use the tapes to intervene in her conflicts?

If not, then what exactly justified reading texts/facebook messages/emails between friends?

>corruptive infos

What exactly is corruptive information?

Re: Girls and Software

#83
post #56

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

I don't agree. Having unlimited access to technological resources is great, I don't think anybody is denying that. But with unlimited net access also comes extremely violent videos, social networks with all kinds of shady types hanging around etc... I really don't think it's responsible to let a 9-12 yo alone on the net in their room. Enabling them to access the net easily while still supervising what they do, giving…

My parents never restricted / supervised me and my brother's internet access much, if at all. I think this gave us an advantage, more than anything else, in terms of learning responsible internet usage from a relatively young age, and knowing that I wasn't being carefully watched everywhere I went online (by them, anyway!) was more or less essential in my getting involved in the communities that led to my developing an interest in programming.

Of course, really this comes down to parenting philosophy more than anything else, but those are my 2¢.

Re: Girls and Software

#84
post #14

I'm torn. I think she makes some really good points -- particularly about discouraging young girls and the futility of shoving adult humans into foreign social situations -- but I also think she might be rather narrowly defining the personality type of a "hacker", and dismissing behaviors that she doesn't find valuable (in her words: "ephemera -- popularity, beauty and fitting in" ). Maybe it's possible that there ar…

>you also have an interest in social media and graphic design You added an "also." The criticism was of "women-in-tech" advocates who are solely "women-in-tech" advocates/PR people/designers and who are not programmers.

I hate to include designers in that maligned category, because their work is actually extremely valuable.

The existence of "women-in-tech" advocates who want other people to program (but not themselves) is baffling to me. Why do we need such people?

Re: Girls and Software

#85
post #47
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is though that she is in a very rare, privileged position. She liked her community, fit in well, felt protected and cared for, wasn't troubled by the gender ratio and all in all was just happy with her situation. For a very large amount of women that is unfortunately not the case nowadays and unfortunately her situation is not typical in the slightest and I didn't see much actionable advice to improve on th…

To say that a 12-year-old farm girl was in a "privileged position" with respect to computers strikes me as absurd.

I'm not saying that she started from a privileged position, just that she had/has one now.

Re: Girls and Software

#86
post #74
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"My point here is that you become what you invest time in becoming. If you want to ascend to elite-level hackerdom, then you almost have to put things like attractiveness and popularity on the back burner." No, you really don't. You believe this because it's what you've seen around you, but that's a selection bias. Someone else on this thread pointed out that Von Neumann was an exceptionally stylish guy, but he's far…

> Someone else on this thread pointed out that Von Neumann was an exceptionally stylish guy, but he's far from the only example. So your solution is to suggest everyone be as smart as John von Neumann so they can master subjects while still being a snappy dresser? Does this seem like something people can do? The proverbial 10k hours of practice have to come from somewhere . Time is limited, activities are zero-sum.

[deleted]

Re: Girls and Software

#87
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on the fence. I think it's a matter of age, and being able to follow on damaging content/encounters. My kid if too small to go around the web yet, but I have the feeling there will be a point where as parents my wife and I will need to let him do what he wants without asking us anything, but we keep the ability to check the logs of everything he accessed with any device in the house It means being able to have re…

The litmus test: Is it okay for you to force your child to wear a wire to school? Is it healthy to use the tapes to intervene in her conflicts? If not, then what exactly justified reading texts/facebook messages/emails between friends? >corruptive infos What exactly is corruptive information?

Mmm...tricky. Is it okay for the school to contact you when your child does not show up at school?

Re: Girls and Software

#88
post #56

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

I don't agree. Having unlimited access to technological resources is great, I don't think anybody is denying that. But with unlimited net access also comes extremely violent videos, social networks with all kinds of shady types hanging around etc... I really don't think it's responsible to let a 9-12 yo alone on the net in their room. Enabling them to access the net easily while still supervising what they do, giving…

It's perfectly possible that you're both right, alas: that the best way to get pre-teens into programming is to give them free access to the internet, and that giving them free access to the internet is a bad thing to do given some of the other, … non-technical content out there.

Re: Girls and Software

#89
post #64
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to me the author vividly conveys what she means by "hacker" in the very paragraph you quoted: technologist addiction solving puzzles building things "victory!" moment impose will on electronics These things are done and felt for their own sake and not as a means to an end, like a paycheck. Perhaps that's the main difference.

I think she also implied that this behavior will be exhibited at a very young age, or not at all. (Which jt2190 also points out below.) She's not the only one to imply this - or outright say it. That always gives me pause, because it does not describe me. My family did not have a computer until I was 16. I figured out HTML on my own, but no programming. I took a programming course in high school, but it was rudimenta…

There's more to it than that though. She is talking about hacking not just in the context of programming, but in a range of activities that may lead somebody to program on their own. It's more about the spirit of it. It's possible to be a hacker making web pages, learning what the markup can do, building whatever level of interactivity you could without 'proper programming.' And, possibly, the most important part of it was the 'thrill' you got out of it.

Of course there may be women in her example that take to their first LUG meeting and go on to become hackers, but assuming that that will be the result, and planning entire social movements accordingly, seems like a bad bet.

Re: Girls and Software

#90
post #81
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think she also implied that this behavior will be exhibited at a very young age, or not at all. (Which jt2190 also points out below.) She's not the only one to imply this - or outright say it. That always gives me pause, because it does not describe me. My family did not have a computer until I was 16. I figured out HTML on my own, but no programming. I took a programming course in high school, but it was rudimenta…

> this behavior will be exhibited at a very young age, or not at all That's so obviously false that I doubt she's saying it. I suspect it's more like: these qualities tend to come up in childhood, so if we want to see more of them, that's where we should focus. Everything about your comment ("I figured out HTML on my own") makes me bet you that had these qualities in spades as a kid long before you had a computer. Al…

What I'm trying to describe is the "by 20, it's too late to make a hacker" sentiment, which I do hear people say. So if I did have these qualities, and we're going to identify them after we've already established that I am a hacker, then it must be true that lots of other people also have these qualities, but did not become hackers.

My point: the notion that good hackers must be hacking on, and tinkering with, computers at a young age is probably too simplistic.

Post reply on HN