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Girls and Software

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Re: Girls and Software

#41

Post by sillysaurus2 »

llimllib wrote: post #38
sillysaurus2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's possible that there are plenty of people out there who care about "ephemera", and yet are also capable of programming a computer or soldering things together? I think it's possible. Sure, Jobs did. On the other hand, Woz was the tech genius, not Jobs. I've never heard of a tech genius who also cared much about the qualities you mention. This seems more than a coincidence. If it were, then there'd probably…

> I've never heard of a tech genius who also cared much about the qualities you mention. How about von Neumann, famous for always being in an impeccably tailored suit? I hope he's genius enough for you. You don't even have to go past the very first hackers to find ones that care about those qualities. There are many, many other examples. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_von_Neumann#Personal_life > Von Neumann…

Indeed! This is a great example, thanks.

Re: Girls and Software

#42

Post by stefantalpalaru »

> Last year, his school offered a robotics class for girls only. When my son asked why he couldn't join, it was explained to him that girls need special help to become interested in technology, and that if there are boys around, the girls will be too scared to try.

And that's why we can't use sexism to fight sexism (or mistakenly enforce the same composition of the general population on self-selected subsets).

Re: Girls and Software

#43

Post by stchangg »

superuser2 wrote: post #12

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

I'm a female developer w/ a EE degree, but mostly self-taught wrt coding.

My parents were nontechnical, but I was lucky enough to have my own computer and a good internet connection starting around 4th grade (8-9 yrs old). Feeling comfortable "breaking" my computer was another thing. I was deathly afraid of breaking things as a kid (unlike my younger brother), and I think it prevented me from coding and exploring things even earlier. I think becoming a great {coder, thinker, leader, etc.} requires internalizing that at some level, it's okay to break the rules.

I eventually found my way onto IRC around age 12, where everyone posed as a 17-yr-old female from LA. I was thankfully super paranoid and fended off child molesters by pretending I was a 56-yr-old man from Texas. ;)

Re: Girls and Software

#44

Post by timr »

superuser2 wrote: post #20
timr wrote: post #14

I'm torn. I think she makes some really good points -- particularly about discouraging young girls and the futility of shoving adult humans into foreign social situations -- but I also think she might be rather narrowly defining the personality type of a "hacker", and dismissing behaviors that she doesn't find valuable (in her words: "ephemera -- popularity, beauty and fitting in" ). Maybe it's possible that there ar…

>you also have an interest in social media and graphic design You added an "also." The criticism was of "women-in-tech" advocates who are solely "women-in-tech" advocates/PR people/designers and who are not programmers.

Yes, that's fair. She does say "women who can't code", so perhaps I'm interpreting that particular sentence too broadly.

That said, she does make more than one disparaging remark about "ephemera"...I think it's safe to read between the lines here and have a conversation about culture, given that a lot of capable people (men and women) are turned off by the traditional societal definition of "hackers".

Re: Girls and Software

#45

Post by jt2190 »

gruseom wrote: post #33
jt2190 wrote: post #13

I'm not sure I understand what the definition of "hacker" is in this article: > Young women don't magically become technologists at 22. > Neither do young men. Hackers are born in childhood, > because that's when the addiction to solving the > puzzle or building something kicks in to those who've > experienced that "victory!" moment like I had when I > imposed my will on a couple electronic primates. It seems to impl…

Seems to me the author vividly conveys what she means by "hacker" in the very paragraph you quoted: technologist addiction solving puzzles building things "victory!" moment impose will on electronics These things are done and felt for their own sake and not as a means to an end, like a paycheck. Perhaps that's the main difference.

Don't forget:

    born in childhood
(edit: I don't disagree with her other definitions. I am concerned that she's missed some key points of the larger debate, namely:

    * Should "outsiders" be actively encouraged to join 
      the community, or should the community be insular and
      inward-focused?
    * Should those who simply want to make a better living 
      be encouraged to learn about and seek employment in 
      the industry, given how lucrative careers can be?)

Re: Girls and Software

#46

Post by [deleted] »

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #37
timr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Woz was the tech genius, not Jobs....I've never heard of a tech genius who also cared much about the qualities you mention." I hope you've considered that your worldly experience may not be comprehensive. I've known plenty of good programmers who care about all the things I mentioned. They just don't self-select with the Linux user groups of the world, so you're unlikely to come upon them if that's where you hang ou…

To clarify, I asked for an example, not touted myself as the arbiter of worldly experiences. I also asked for an example of a programmer on the level of Woz. This is an important distinguishing quality, because otherwise there's no way to know how good a hacker actually is. Every story would be anecdotal instead of resembling factual.

[deleted]

Re: Girls and Software

#47

Post by gruseom »

mtrimpe wrote: post #21
pdonis wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your quote is a good one, but I like this one even better: I came to the Open Source world because I liked being part of a community where my ideas, my skills and my experience mattered, not my boobs. That's changed, and it's changed at the hands of the people who say they want a community where ideas, skills and experience matter more than boobs. I don't at all see her failing to acknowledge that she was fortunate--…

The thing is though that she is in a very rare, privileged position. She liked her community, fit in well, felt protected and cared for, wasn't troubled by the gender ratio and all in all was just happy with her situation. For a very large amount of women that is unfortunately not the case nowadays and unfortunately her situation is not typical in the slightest and I didn't see much actionable advice to improve on th…

To say that a 12-year-old farm girl was in a "privileged position" with respect to computers strikes me as absurd.

Re: Girls and Software

#48

Post by guard-of-terra »

There is a broader point that we no longer have the open source community we once had.

It was about filling every thing with good open source software - be it desktop, server, embedded. On desktop there was a variety of DEs, distributions, software and all that stuff. There was hope that open source will win.

But nowdays I see open source largely as a server side movement powering large proprietary platforms. Everybody is using these platforms without questioning. There is no longer anything to win. Plus proliferation of walled gardens.

What will new open source hackers work on? Ruby test framework? No they won't. Maybe they will be hacking mobile dev, but that makes you conformist nimble enough to crawl into walled garden.

The politics regarding gender are just a part of politics out there.

Re: Girls and Software

#49

Post by timr »

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #41
llimllib wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never heard of a tech genius who also cared much about the qualities you mention. How about von Neumann, famous for always being in an impeccably tailored suit? I hope he's genius enough for you. You don't even have to go past the very first hackers to find ones that care about those qualities. There are many, many other examples. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_von_Neumann#Personal_life > Von Neumann…

Indeed! This is a great example, thanks.

You should also stop and consider, for just a moment, that if the only stories that can convince you need to be famous, you're working in a very narrow space of human experience.

It's a big world out there, and there are a lot of smart people who will defy your expectations.

Re: Girls and Software

#50

Post by VonGuard »

themade.org teaches free programming classes to kids. We've been doing this for 2 years now, and most of the time, our ratios are 50/50. Yesterday, in fact, we had 3 boys and 6 girls for our scratch class, then had 8 girls and 2 boys for our interactive fiction class, taught in Twine.

Couple things we've learned. First, girls default to pair programming. They cluster, they work together, when they have a problem, they solve it for one another before asking the teachers. They work together and don't compete. The boys compete and try to get way far ahead of the teachers, and end up getting lost. The girls all move at the same pace except for the ones who were advanced-class level when they showed up.

Second thing: little girls are not affraid, and not any less able to do this. It's a societal thing that pushes them away. They see the girls in their classes interested in other things, so they don't get interested in computers. Instead, they get interested in facebook, not the computer itself, because their older siblings use it, their friends use it, and they then learn that computers are for socializing. Given the proper environment, they can learn anything a geek would learn, it's just that they don't get spoon fed computer knowledge, they get spoon fed facebook, Snapchat, Pokemon and Minecraft knowledge.

Third: Minecraft cuts across all genders. All kids absolutely adore Minecraft, and about 50% want to learn programming just to make mods for the game.

Finally, girls who come to our classes keep coming back. They have a little social group with the other girls, and they welcome in other girls. The boys are left out, mostly, but that's fine as they're not having trouble learning or keeping up. The girls in our classes are their own support mechanism, and they tend to become friends outside of classes.

So, learn from this what you will.

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