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Girls and Software

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Re: Girls and Software

#21
post #5
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start with a young woman who's already formed her identity. Dump her in a situation that operates on different social scripts than she's accustomed to, full of people talking about a subject she doesn't yet understand. Then tell her the community is hostile toward women and therefore doesn't have enough of them, all while showing her off like a prize poodle so you can feel good about recruiting a female. This is a re…

Your quote is a good one, but I like this one even better: I came to the Open Source world because I liked being part of a community where my ideas, my skills and my experience mattered, not my boobs. That's changed, and it's changed at the hands of the people who say they want a community where ideas, skills and experience matter more than boobs. I don't at all see her failing to acknowledge that she was fortunate--…

The thing is though that she is in a very rare, privileged position. She liked her community, fit in well, felt protected and cared for, wasn't troubled by the gender ratio and all in all was just happy with her situation.

For a very large amount of women that is unfortunately not the case nowadays and unfortunately her situation is not typical in the slightest and I didn't see much actionable advice to improve on that.

It's also important to note that it seems the people she respected are separated from today's youth by almost two generations:

  I've never had a problem with old-school hackers. These guys 
  treat me like one of them, rather than "the woman in the group", 
  and many are old enough to remember when they worked on teams 
  that were about one third women, and no one thought that strange. 
  Of course, the key word here is "old" (sorry guys). Most of the 
  programmers I like are closer to my father's age than mine.
Ever since that generation the gender gap has been widening and she's now witnessing attempts to correct that and she doesn't like what she sees. She doesn't like the exclusion of her son, the message it sends to him about women in tech (and thus herself) and most of all the fact that gender has now become a 'thing.' And I can totally relate that for her it must be painful indeed and that is her voice and she totally deserves it.

Where we would go wrong is if we took this as the right approach, if we started basing best practices from this or worse: if we would use it to belittle the work of everyone who is trying to improve the situation.

Re: Girls and Software

#22
post #19

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

> which I was free to break (software-wise) I'm curious, were you on a linux os? Did you break your software often? It seems to me people who get on linux early might have an easier time, because they can so easily break their system and rebuild it. It seems like a kid who breaks a windows/ mac os might need to go to their parents to deal with license keys, which might cause the parents to say "no more hacking".

OSX so no license keys or activation. I had to ask where the disks were kept the first couple times but I was careful to frame it as "I know what I'm doing, I just need the disks." My parents didn't mind.

Also we were covered by AppleCare and I had no problem calling in for myself.

This was in the PPC days so no VMs for me. Eventually I got a used PC from my dad's office for like $45 which has probably been through 80 Linux reinstallations. WiFi was a nightmare though, and I eventually gave up on desktop linux. Still have like 4 DO boxes and have experimented endlessly on AWS.

Since it is impossible to autonomously do payments on the internet before age 18, my parents' willingness to let me use their credit card (and then settle accounts each month via allowance and occasionally debits from my savings) was also crucial. No other way I would have been able to play with web hosting or actually make any projects live.

Re: Girls and Software

#24
post #14

I'm torn. I think she makes some really good points -- particularly about discouraging young girls and the futility of shoving adult humans into foreign social situations -- but I also think she might be rather narrowly defining the personality type of a "hacker", and dismissing behaviors that she doesn't find valuable (in her words: "ephemera -- popularity, beauty and fitting in" ). Maybe it's possible that there ar…

>Maybe it's possible that there are plenty of people out there who care about "ephemera", and yet are also capable of programming a computer or soldering things together?

Did you even read the article? The point she made is that feminists are trying to "fix" the gender ratio in tech by expanding the definition of hacker to people who have no idea what solder even is and have never printed a hello world in their life.

>dismissing behaviors that she doesn't find valuable (in her words: "ephemera -- popularity, beauty and fitting in").

These things are in no way relevant to producing good code. They're completely orthogonal.

>Are we defining "hacker" to include only people with bad social skills and no interest outside of technology?

The only person putting forth that argument here is you.

Re: Girls and Software

#25
Nicely put. Not convinced by the 'special olympics' comment (aren't we working towards complete equality of people here?) but get the sentiment.

I personally think the self-confidence to create or do what one wants, put the head above the parapet etc., should be nurtured in every school-goer and beyond. It's normally the cultural norms of schools and wider society that squash any desire to confidently attempt something unusual in life. It's alright for athletes, coming back to the olympic theme, as that particular abnormal activity is celebrated and funded.

In essence, too many small-minded, anxious bullies and borderline psychopaths in positions of influence. Influence itself needs decentralizing?

Re: Girls and Software

#26
post #13

I'm not sure I understand what the definition of "hacker" is in this article: > Young women don't magically become technologists at 22. > Neither do young men. Hackers are born in childhood, > because that's when the addiction to solving the > puzzle or building something kicks in to those who've > experienced that "victory!" moment like I had when I > imposed my will on a couple electronic primates. It seems to impl…

You have to allow for exceptions. Talking about apples is not denying the existence of oranges.

It is just very hard for a 20+ to become interested in something that is not related to something prominent in their life thus far. A boy whose life has been about cars and football is not very likely to pick up an interest in butterflies.

Re: Girls and Software

#27
post #19

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

> which I was free to break (software-wise) I'm curious, were you on a linux os? Did you break your software often? It seems to me people who get on linux early might have an easier time, because they can so easily break their system and rebuild it. It seems like a kid who breaks a windows/ mac os might need to go to their parents to deal with license keys, which might cause the parents to say "no more hacking".

I did work around the neighborhood to buy a license to Windows 2000 Pro just so I would always have my own copy and license in case I needed to blow it away.

Re: Girls and Software

#28
post #14

I'm torn. I think she makes some really good points -- particularly about discouraging young girls and the futility of shoving adult humans into foreign social situations -- but I also think she might be rather narrowly defining the personality type of a "hacker", and dismissing behaviors that she doesn't find valuable (in her words: "ephemera -- popularity, beauty and fitting in" ). Maybe it's possible that there ar…

Maybe it's possible that there are plenty of people out there who care about "ephemera", and yet are also capable of programming a computer or soldering things together? I think it's possible. Sure, Jobs did. On the other hand, Woz was the tech genius, not Jobs. I've never heard of a tech genius who also cared much about the qualities you mention. This seems more than a coincidence. If it were, then there'd probably…

"Woz was the tech genius, not Jobs....I've never heard of a tech genius who also cared much about the qualities you mention."

I hope you've considered that your worldly experience may not be comprehensive.

I've known plenty of good programmers who care about all the things I mentioned. They just don't self-select with the Linux user groups of the world, so you're unlikely to come upon them if that's where you hang out.

Re: Girls and Software

#29
It's a good rant. There are concrete suggestions for improvement, and also concrete examples of where some people went a little too far.

I'm less happy about excluding people who are coming into computing late, though.

Re: Girls and Software

#30
post #3

I resubmitted this because it seems like an viewpoint that's important in the larger gender in tech conversation, but the author seems to be outside the mainstream conversation (or at lest what I see of it on Hacker News). Sadly it looks like this submission is dying an even more uneventful death than the first time it was posted.

Start with a young woman who's already formed her identity. Dump her in a situation that operates on different social scripts than she's accustomed to, full of people talking about a subject she doesn't yet understand. Then tell her the community is hostile toward women and therefore doesn't have enough of them, all while showing her off like a prize poodle so you can feel good about recruiting a female. This is a re…

>On the other hand it has a pretty strong "I got mine" component to it, where she laments the negative effects these changes have had on her personally but doesn't acknowledge that while she's in a position she likes that doesn't at all mean it is, or would be, like that for many others.

These special ed for women programming events are harmful to all women, not just women who already program. You can't de-emphasize gender by putting more emphasis on it...

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