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Why I Did Not Go To Jail

bhorowitz.com

181–190 of 195 posts

Re: Why I Did Not Go To Jail

#181
What boils my blood is this woman going to jail for doing something that was accepted practice and approved by PwC, where seemingly no criminal intent existed.

Laws that are that opaque, where interpretation and enforcement can change at the whim of regulators and their bosses, are not morally justifiable. IIRC Steve Jobs did the same thing at Apple and they (predictably) got a slap on the wrist.

When this was going on I was running a small public co. and our counsel (outside but on BOD) was dead-set against any options dating shenanigans, despite what others were doing, so I guess I agree with OP's main point -- that having the right reporting structure can save your ass.

Re: Why I Did Not Go To Jail

#182
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what's the point of exercise backdating anyway - once the option is granted, the base price is fixed (and thus the base from which the tax is calculated), and all you can do is to change the resulting stock price, but the result of exercising at date X and holding to date Y and just exercising on date Y seem identical to me - you still have a stock priced at the spot price of date Y. Maybe some tax law d…

there are differences. For example, the profit from the grant date to the date of exercise is ordinary income - taxed at your bracket rate, while any profit coming from holding for longer than 1 year after exercise is at long-term capital gain - 15%.

Here you go. Same person, same profits, same amounts, different laws. Why? Because.

Re: Why I Did Not Go To Jail

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that simple. Running around thinking that CFO = evil sociopath is ridiculous. It's about motivation and accountability. The story in the article is a great example, I don't think the CFO thought that she was breaking the law. It was a practice that she had engaged in previously, it was vetted by a big-5 accounting firm, and benefited the employees. The CFO was widely respected in the industry -- this wasn't…

my comment was a response to the question "why do some companies have the GC report to the CFO?". it was not about the company in the originally linked article, which obviously does not use this structure (and for good reason). regarding that CFO from the linked article though, the federal prosecutor seemed to believe she was a criminal, and proved it enough that a jury agreed also and she eventually served jail time…

I think this is a misuse of the word 'sociopath'. There are lots of things that are not strictly legal that we do all the time. Some of them result in in jail sentences (eg. possession of marijuana can hardly be called sociopathic).

Re: Why I Did Not Go To Jail

#184
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are differences. For example, the profit from the grant date to the date of exercise is ordinary income - taxed at your bracket rate, while any profit coming from holding for longer than 1 year after exercise is at long-term capital gain - 15%.

Here you go. Same person, same profits, same amounts, different laws. Why? Because.

the risk isn't the same. Instead of capital gain a capital loss may happen - for example when you own stock, like, in particular, after exercise. Whereis in case of stock options there is no risk of loss before exercise. The stock options may be worth 0 - that is the lowest possible outcome, and you wouldn't be charged a dime if the options are underwater. Just like bonus - company pays to you when things are great, yet you don't pay to company when the things aren't. Thus the same ordinary income tax treatment for stock options exercise profit as for bonus.

Re: Why I Did Not Go To Jail

#186
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true at all. This is a federal system, and she probably plead guilty because her choices probably were plead guilty and get 3 months in jail or plead innocent, go to trial, and get 20 years. The federal system is beyond fucked up, and they are making it worse every year.

Exactly. Someone decided that this individual needed to be made into an example and go to jail for some nominal amount of time. Period. Go to trial, and they would find some statement made in hours of interrogation that wasn't 100% accurate, and convict her of lying to a Federal officer.

This is the USA, don't talk to the authorities without a lawyer, and don't say anything if you can't say the truth. If she doesn't know that she has no business being a CFO.

Re: Why I Did Not Go To Jail

#187
post #51

What I take from this story is that the financial law is so complex and unapproachable one can not reliably navigate it without landing in jail, even being a seasoned professional. The author's council could have given him "yes" answer as easily as "no" answer - many other lawyers obviously did since 200 companies got "yes" answers from their councils. And he'd never known anything was wrong. Basically, one can becom…

This exactly what financial law is for. So anyone can be busted at any time. It is working as designed - but designed by whom for whom's benefit, you might ask.

Re: Why I Did Not Go To Jail

#188
post #175
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "arbitrary" I was referring to was from the article -- a direct quote from Horowitz. I'm saying that if knowing things like the legal requirements for running a company isn't expected to be part of your job, then you should pay someone a hell of a lot less to do the job than most executives are paid. If you just want someone to wing it, give me a call -- I'll work for probably 10% of the salary. It's not that the…

That's what I am saying - responsibility is in finding what is right to do and doing the best you can in the situation. But what if the situation is such that there's literally no way of knowing what is right and what is not? If the law is so impenetrable that basically asking a lawyer is akin to going to an psychic - he gives you the answer, charges a lot of money, but you have no idea where it came from, is it true…

True, I presume to tell employers that they are responsible for following the law.

I think you're exaggerating the complexity of the legal system to attempt to support a point that doesn't warrant support. In the article, Horowitz took the proposal to his company's legal counsel, and quite quickly, counsel came back with, "this proposal is illegal". It's not impossible to determine that -- it was actually determined correctly in the real world.

On the wage agreement issue, here's a quote from the recent Pando Daily article (http://pando.com/2014/01/23/the-techtopus-how-silicon-valley...) regarding Eric Schmidt:

"Later that year, Schmidt instructed his Sr VP for Business Operation Shona Brown to keep the pact a secret and only share information “verbally, since I don’t want to create a paper trail over which we can be sued later?"

This isn't a case of a company honestly trying to follow the law and being victimized. Schmidt knew that he was opening Google up to legal action, and he did it anyway because it saved him huge amounts of money.

If these companies think the laws are bad, it's not like large corporations have no political power. They're free to buy as many votes as they always do and get them changed. Until that happens, they can suck it up and abide by the anti-trust laws in force in the country they've chosen to incorporate in.

Re: Why I Did Not Go To Jail

#189
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often all or most administrative (read: non-revenue-generating, non-operational) functions for the company fall under the CFO--simply because the finance function is administrative but the CFO pretty much has to report to the CEO. The GC is administrative--as is HR, real estate, etc.--so they all often report to the CFO.

Indeed, even in medium-sized companies I/T will often be part of the CFO's department. Fortunately I/T seems to be on it way out, though regrettably slowly.

Seconded, where is IT going and why is that fortunate?

Re: Why I Did Not Go To Jail

#190
post #188
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I am saying - responsibility is in finding what is right to do and doing the best you can in the situation. But what if the situation is such that there's literally no way of knowing what is right and what is not? If the law is so impenetrable that basically asking a lawyer is akin to going to an psychic - he gives you the answer, charges a lot of money, but you have no idea where it came from, is it true…

True, I presume to tell employers that they are responsible for following the law. I think you're exaggerating the complexity of the legal system to attempt to support a point that doesn't warrant support. In the article, Horowitz took the proposal to his company's legal counsel, and quite quickly, counsel came back with, "this proposal is illegal". It's not impossible to determine that -- it was actually determined…

It was determined in this particular case. But in many other cases, it was not, and this scheme was approved, for example, by PWC.

>>> This isn't a case of a company honestly trying to follow the law

First of all, this is not the case that we were discussing - it has very little to do with financial law. Secondly, in current climate, where companies can be sued for basically anything, given they have enough money to be attractive targets, of course that makes executives to try and minimize the exposure. Even though company is supposed to be able to choose their worker's pay as they please, obviously it is not so - the populist politicians want to mess with it to get themselves elected. And thus a savvy executive would certainly not want to make it too easy for them. It turns into an adversarial game, and the results are not good for anyone.

>>> If these companies think the laws are bad, it's not like large corporations have no political power. They're free to buy as many votes as they always do and get them changed.

That's what they are doing. That's where the regulatory capture comes from. As a result, the law becomes more and more complex, as each company and each interest group carves a loophole in the law for themselves and pours millions into buying off politicians. As a result, we get completely corrupt politicians, the law that is trying to serve a thousand of special interests and no longer has any connection to what was the original purpose of the law - to protect people's rights, huge barriers of entry to the competition, billions spent on political squabbles instead of doing something productive (think about how many people one could feed and clothe for the cost of one election campaign) and ultimately the consumers and taxpayers paying for all this baloney. And you response essentially is - if you don't like how we do it in America, GTFO? Is this really the best you can do?

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