Nadella as Microsoft CEO: A slap in the face for Indian system • Hacker News Board

Re: Nadella as Microsoft CEO: A slap in the face for Indian system

#111

Post by JoeAltmaier » Wed, Feb 05, 2014, 5:25 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #103

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very narrow view of culture, and wrong. Culture in some PC sense might be defined as only those things that are cute. But peoples differ greatly in important ways. There are real differences in family support, work ethic, dedication. Sorry if that seems offensive.

>Sorry if that seems offensive. It seems groundless and silly, rather than offensive. Examples of cultures that lack family support, a work ethic, concentration, or dedication would make your case.

That is available to anyone who looks around, even here inside America. There is the inner-city single-family absent-dad culture where kids are unsupported and unemployable. There are solid Asian immigrant families that demand hard work and long study hours from their children, resulting in exceptional scholastic achievement.

In fact you have to be blind to not see all of this. Blinded by some touchy-feely wish-fulfillment dream that somehow we'd all get along if we just quit {whatever implausible scenario you want}. I suspect at root its the feeling that we'd all get along if we were all just like me.

But we're not all just like, well, anybody. We're terribly different. Get over it, deal with it, and learn to get along anyway. That's the answer, not blinding ourselves to the astonish variety of ways human societies work (or don't work).

Re: Nadella as Microsoft CEO: A slap in the face for Indian system

#112

Post by BlackDeath3 » Wed, Feb 05, 2014, 5:29 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #89

mhurron wrote: post #3

“We are all human beings, and our nationality is simply an accident of birth.” This is my position on the Olympics and basically all national pride. It has nothing to do with anything, there is nothing to be proud of. No one cares when I think it, it's nice to see others say it.

> “We are all human beings, and our nationality is simply an accident of birth.” Well, this is obviously wrong. Birth is not just a random momentary thing. It involves your parents. And they already had a nationality too. You couldn't have been born by any two random other people and still be the same person (DNA, childhood raising, education, food, native language, et al). Second, you is not your birth only. It's al…

It seems to me that the truth of this matter lies somewhere in the middle (as with most things).

Is your nationality meaningless? Certainly not, for reasons as coldtea has pointed out above. Though a person's birth could have happened anywhere (assuming, for a moment, that the parents had the mobility to settle anywhere they chose), the fact is that it did not happen anywhere. It happened where it happened. While I have much empathy for those who would deny nationalism in any way, shape, and form, it really cannot be overlooked so simply. As much as I try to be this objective, unbiased, rational being, I realize that my birthplace and culture has certainly affected me whether I'd like to admit it or not.

On the other hand, rabid nationalism remains meaningless to me. I see no reason to war against others in the name of my country, and I see no reason to prefer those with nationalities in-line with mine to others. If an Indian Nobel prize winner decides to turn his back on those parasitic "countrymen" who attempt to latch themselves onto him and bask in his reflected glory for no reason other than "you're Indian, I'm Indian", I support him all the way.

Re: Nadella as Microsoft CEO: A slap in the face for Indian system

#113

Post by BlackDeath3 » Wed, Feb 05, 2014, 5:32 PM UTC

castis wrote: post #107

coldtea wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “We are all human beings, and our nationality is simply an accident of birth.” Well, this is obviously wrong. Birth is not just a random momentary thing. It involves your parents. And they already had a nationality too. You couldn't have been born by any two random other people and still be the same person (DNA, childhood raising, education, food, native language, et al). Second, you is not your birth only. It's al…

You can write all you want, but outright nullifying someones argument with "Well, this is obviously wrong." immediately inspires resentment and you've already lost their interest.

coldtea went a whole lot further than you seem to imply that they did, regardless of whether you agree with what was said or not. If somebody loses interest in a critical argument because it opens with "you're wrong", then perhaps their interest isn't worth having in the first place.

Re: Nadella as Microsoft CEO: A slap in the face for Indian system

#114

Post by BlackDeath3 » Wed, Feb 05, 2014, 5:35 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #104

coldtea wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “We are all human beings, and our nationality is simply an accident of birth.” Well, this is obviously wrong. Birth is not just a random momentary thing. It involves your parents. And they already had a nationality too. You couldn't have been born by any two random other people and still be the same person (DNA, childhood raising, education, food, native language, et al). Second, you is not your birth only. It's al…

Well, this is obviously wrong. Well, despite how obvious it is to you, you totally failed to convince me. Home country in danger? "Fuck it, I'll just flee. After all, it's only me, me, me that matters" Yes, and? Nationalism is the problem, not the solution. Oh, I understand the reasons articulated by the evolutionary psychologists for why humans are cliquish and tribal, and that all makes perfect sense. But we have t…

>Yes, and? Nationalism is the problem, not the solution. Oh, I understand the reasons articulated by the evolutionary psychologists for why humans are cliquish and tribal, and that all makes perfect sense. But we have the capacity for logic and higher order reasoning and we can transcend primal instincts like that if we want. And I think we should.

I agree, and argue this all the time.

Yes, I understand that nationality does affect me. Yes, I understand that human instinct is to "be social". But is that reason to spit in the face of a rational argument against a social problem?

Re: Nadella as Microsoft CEO: A slap in the face for Indian system

#115

Post by BlackDeath3 » Wed, Feb 05, 2014, 5:37 PM UTC

dopamean wrote: post #37

shrikant wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly agree with this. Nationalist pride is the Kool-Aid peddled by government and society to get you to conform to their respective agendas and keep you from questioning the stupid shit they get up to. And I really don't mean to come off as a pothead going "It's all a giant conspiracy man!"...

You guys take this way too seriously.

You know, I could say that about pretty much anything that anybody has passion enough to argue over, but until I elaborated further my post wouldn't very contributing to the conversation.

Re: Nadella as Microsoft CEO: A slap in the face for Indian system

#116

Post by bane » Wed, Feb 05, 2014, 5:41 PM UTC

thinkpad20 wrote: post #60

I see a lot of parallels here with the Japanese system. Similarly, the system seems to encourage conformism and rote learning over disruptive ideas and innovation. Similarly, their top universities have phenomenally competitive admissions, even though they are not ranked particularly high internationally. Similarly, many of their systems are characterized by endless paperwork and bureaucracy. Of course, there are cer…

As an outsider, it looks like India is trying very hard to figure out a path to success. But, probably for historical reasons, it's looking for a path to a Western U.S./Britain model of success rather than East Asian Japan/South Korea/Singapore/Hong Kong model.

I don't know which makes more sense for India to look towards, but I wonder if a New Delhi that looks more like Seoul than London makes more sense and if modeling a future path on established paths to success and growth is a better idea. There may be more cultural similarities (for example, the social difficulties of coming out of deeply entrenched caste system, a deep respect for education, etc.) and adapting the same patterns for India's local conditions might work better

For example, building an export driven economy like Japan and Korea did, has resulted in unbelievable economic growth, advanced technology, and global respect. By and large those countries are also able to retain talent, build sufficient educational institutions to train that talent, have enough local economic opportunities for that talent to make money, and have a vibrant enough economy to allow them to spend that money locally.

It seems to me that many of the basic pieces are there for India to follow those models, and with a massive and cheap labor pool (one of the main requirements for this to work), make it happen.

Re: Nadella as Microsoft CEO: A slap in the face for Indian system

#117

Post by jl6 » Wed, Feb 05, 2014, 5:42 PM UTC

mhurron wrote: post #3

“We are all human beings, and our nationality is simply an accident of birth.” This is my position on the Olympics and basically all national pride. It has nothing to do with anything, there is nothing to be proud of. No one cares when I think it, it's nice to see others say it.

If you feel pride because of the achievements of your compatriots, you should also feel shame because of their crimes.

I guess some people are happy to accept that shame if it means they can share in the pride too. But I suspect most people who feel proud of their country would wash their hands of the shame by saying the crimes were nothing to do with them. Fairweather collectivists!

Re: Nadella as Microsoft CEO: A slap in the face for Indian system

#118

Post by mathattack » Wed, Feb 05, 2014, 5:43 PM UTC

I view this differently. He found a non-traditional way. He didn't go to IIT. He didn't go to the top engineering school in the US. He got his MBA part time. But he found a way.

I am very bullish on Nadella. He's not a lock to succeed, but he has a fighting chance, which is a lot more than I can say for most of the other candidates mentioned. (The CEO from Ford could probably run GE or 3M too, but the only thing he could do at Microsoft is dismantle it.)

Re: Nadella as Microsoft CEO: A slap in the face for Indian system

#119

Post by jff » Wed, Feb 05, 2014, 5:46 PM UTC

finishingmove wrote: post #11

A slap in the face indeed, but not in the way it's presented. I admire the Indian people, and what prompted me to respond here were the comments below that article more than the article itself. They were what I expected to find, "We are pathetic, we are whiners, we are losers.". I used to think the same about my country. Until I realized that decades and centuries of exploitation at the hands of malicious outside for…

Yeah that sounds about right for a Marxist: "It's all those evil OTHER PEOPLE's fault that we suck! Trust us, it'll be a lot better after the revolution"

Re: Nadella as Microsoft CEO: A slap in the face for Indian system

#120

Post by enscr » Wed, Feb 05, 2014, 5:48 PM UTC

mhurron wrote: post #3

“We are all human beings, and our nationality is simply an accident of birth.” This is my position on the Olympics and basically all national pride. It has nothing to do with anything, there is nothing to be proud of. No one cares when I think it, it's nice to see others say it.

I agree. I think the next phase of evolution should involve transcending international boundaries and working as a planet rather than as a nation.