Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf) • Hacker News Board

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#101

Post by agentultra » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 3:26 PM UTC

Drinking is everywhere. My father in law works in dental implants and he goes to conferences on cruise ships... which are all about drinking in between talks. You don't have to partake of course but there aren't many people who make that choice (he doesn't "get" drinking at all).

I agree that keeping it out of the conference itinerary is probably best. I have only been to Pycon/PyconCA 2012, 2013 and will be speaking at 2014. I don't recall there being an official, sponsored event at a bar. There were provided areas for impromptu talk sessions and meetups (to hack or play board games or whatever). But overall it seemed like drinking was something that was scheduled unofficially for those interested in partaking after the day was over.

It might help trying out different communities. I know in Toronto the Ruby group frequently meets up for... drinks [0]. And I worked for a company that sponsored a few javascript meetups... and provided drinks. At least in Toronto there's a strong link between the Ruby/JS community and going out for beers. The Python and Lisp groups tend to meetup at co-working spaces and cafes.

[0] https://twitter.com/torontorb (just count the number of times "drinkup" is mentioned... I never even realized this was a thing until I read this article [1] http://createsend.com/t/j-72A1831D965A5352 One of many Toronto javascript events organized at a bar.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#102

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 3:54 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #83

mtrimpe wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me. > The reason there's so much alcohol is because it acts as a social lubricant. Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor. That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't…

There is more to it. Drinking establishments are great places for unstructured social engagements. There are not a lot of other venues that are similar. When I was in Pune, I was speaking with people (hi Mayank!) who were trying to set up regular hacker meetups. Scheduling formal lectures was easy. But unstructured social engagements was much harder to set up. I suggested that we did it in bars in NY/London, but due…

[deleted]

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#103

Post by Anderkent » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 4:06 PM UTC

legutierr wrote: post #86

Kudos wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are also a bunch people, like me, who can't (or shouldn't) drink because of medical conditions. At the same time though, it doesn't bother me when people are drinking in moderation and not set on getting hammered.

> At the same time though, it doesn't bother me when people are drinking in moderation and not set on getting hammered. The OP describes a situation where it seems that moderation is being actively discouraged.

Is he? He presents pics with a couple cases of beers as if twas evidence of getting hammered.

There was alcohol on the couple conferences I've been to, sure. Everyone had a beer or two. It facilities relaxed discussions, makes brain storming much easier. I haven't seen anyone get drunk.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#104

Post by jdietrich » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 4:09 PM UTC

oskarth wrote: post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

This is an embarrassingly facile response.

Many religious and cultural minorities avoid alcohol-based gatherings, because their background forbids or strongly disapproves of such behaviour. Most recovering alcoholics avoid environments where drinking is taking place. As other commenters have said, a lot of women aren't comfortable being alone in a room full of drunk guys; Thanks to the tech industry's problems with gender, they probably already have plenty of good reasons to feel uncomfortable at a tech conference. If your conference is boozy, then a whole bunch of people are going to stay at home for that reason.

Do you not see a problem with booth babes at expos, or game companies who in the past have organised launch events at strip clubs? Would you argue that people who feel uncomfortable with the idea of scantily-clad women being used as props should simply avert their gaze? What if we replaced alcohol with a different drug? Would you be fine holding a tech event in a cannabis cafe or a crackhouse?

If you want to throw an after-party at your conference, fine. Most conferences inevitably have plenty of late-night drinking at the hotel bar and I'm not going to argue with that. But if you allow that drinking culture to encroach on the event itself then you're marginalising a large group of people, you're invoking all the dreadful fratboy stereotypes that the tech industry so desperately needs to shake off.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#105

Post by Anderkent » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 4:09 PM UTC

dangrossman wrote: post #3

Is this a SV thing? Anyone in other cities care to chime in? I've been to a few "camps" and "confs" and tech meetup groups in Philadelphia, and none of them were at bars nor catered with free beer. "We're meeting up at X bar after if anyone wants to come" is a common thing to hear or even see on a schedule, but the actual events are about the panels/speakers/networking... usually with ample time to socialize.

London here, had catered beers and pizza/food on some events (evening meetups, call it). No 'binge drinking' though - maybe a beer or two per person.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#106

Post by hajderr » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 4:09 PM UTC

Spot on bro !

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#107

Post by mtrimpe » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 4:16 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #93

mtrimpe wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course; drinking establishments make good money on these events so they have a lot of incentive to make this as easy as possible. Come to think of it, that's actually a really good example of an area where we can put in a bit more effort to create more inclusive events. In general it's about finding a format which lets attendees personally contribute to the venue's revenue, which sounds like a problem we should co…

What would a more inclusive event look like? Going to a bar and having people socialize with a no-alcohol policy? That gives off a weird puritan vibe. More formal/structured activities are likely to be more exclusionary since people have different ideas about what is fun. Or may not feel comfortable participating in things because of disabilities etc. In a bar at least people are free to make their own fun and come a…

Something that would quickly come to mind is something like dim-sum or high-tea adapted to evenings and crowds of varying size.

Probably just changing the focal point from the bar to the buffet and encouraging seating instead of standing would create a completely different atmosphere.

Another variable you could consider playing with is moving from self-service to being served; where the waiters are instructed to dial down the frequency when guests get too far along.

Ironically enough unlimited drinks is something that could work fairly well in this context, as long as the implication that excessive boozing is discouraged and will not be enabled by the waiting staff.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#108

Post by calinet6 » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 4:32 PM UTC

gtz60 wrote: post #92

calinet6 wrote: post #80

Point of data: nearly all conferences for all industries revolve largely around drinking. I worked in the outdoor industry for 5 years and went to the Outdoor Retailer trade show on the floor of the Salt Lake City convention center, which houses huge brands from all over the world. And what happened at 4pm every day of the conference? Every other booth or so tapped a keg or opened their coolers. They gave out free gl…

I think that our "grow up" attitude might contribute to more to the exclusion. What I mean is, saying "you need to change" isn't the best way to bring excluded people in. Even if we are right.

Very fair point. I'm not saying "grow up" here in a condescending way, as much as explaining my perspective once I did grow up and start seeing people's behavior in another light. But it does come off as exclusionary and condescending, sorry about that.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#109

Post by mtrimpe » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 4:35 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #95

mtrimpe wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course; drinking establishments make good money on these events so they have a lot of incentive to make this as easy as possible. Come to think of it, that's actually a really good example of an area where we can put in a bit more effort to create more inclusive events. In general it's about finding a format which lets attendees personally contribute to the venue's revenue, which sounds like a problem we should co…

Personally I'm happy with bars and it seems like most people in the west are, so I'm not going to expend a lot of efforts fixing a non-problem. We don't need the alternative to have a tech community, and the fact of the matter is that any cultural choices we make will "exclude" some people. (I put "exclude" in scare quotes because it's self-imposed exclusion.) But if you find a good solution that might be deployable…

I find the degree to which you're comfortable using generic statements to define the issue a non-problem for the entire industry quite disheartening.

That you personally don't feel the need to spend energy on these issues I perfectly understand however since it would do little to advance your personal goals. When it comes to those my comments to jiggy2011 might help get you started.

Just like what it would take to make tech events more inclusive; in your case it's also just about finding an existing pattern of behaviour your target demographic already displays which you can most easily latch on to and co-opt to help advance your personal goals: tighter interpersonal integration within the Pune tech scene.

It's late here so I can't ask my Indian co-workers, but I'm fairly confident that their culture also already has patterns to enable spontaneous social interaction. My guess is that it involves food somehow ;)

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#110

Post by oskarth » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 4:38 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #104

oskarth wrote: post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

This is an embarrassingly facile response. Many religious and cultural minorities avoid alcohol-based gatherings, because their background forbids or strongly disapproves of such behaviour. Most recovering alcoholics avoid environments where drinking is taking place. As other commenters have said, a lot of women aren't comfortable being alone in a room full of drunk guys; Thanks to the tech industry's problems with g…

A lot of people are vegans for all kinds of reasons. Does that mean meat shouldn't be served at conferences? Frankly, that's ridiculous. The absolute majority of people are ok with alcohol in moderate doses (I still don't know what kind of binge drinking events he's talking about, since I haven't been to one. I presume I'm not missing much, and neither is anyone else who chooses not to go). I am not going to comment on the straw man arguments.

This does not mean a individual conference couldn't be better with less alcohol, just like a dress code might help in some contexts (see every other industry). This is a choice that every conference maker is free to make, and does every time they organize an event - unlike the complain club supporting members. I for one would love a tea room style conference, but I am not gonna complain about someone not arranging it for me.