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Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

old.ryanfunduk.com

81–90 of 120 posts

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#81
post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

Clearly there is a group of non-drinkers that do feel excluded from drinking events, even if that feeling is imagined. One possible solution that doesn't take away drinking events would be to explicitly welcome them.

"If you don't drink, there will be plenty of sodas, water, juices, etc. at the bar. We want to hang out with all of you regardless of what you're drinking. :)"

Two years ago, as a non-drinker who felt a lot of non-existant peer pressure, just that line would've made me much more comfortable in attending one of these social events. If nothing else, it's a good first step that costs nothing more than the breath to say it out loud.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#82
post #71
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me. > The reason there's so much alcohol is because it acts as a social lubricant. Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor. That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't…

>they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men. I cannot think of a single occurrence of physical violence or rape that occurred at a technical conference. Your projections over all women here are unwarranted. Maybe you feel this way because men are much more aggressive with other men? That would be a fair statement here.

There's plenty of actual harrasment to be found in this list of incidents: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Timeline_of_in...

Keep in mind that this is just the subset of women who were strong and determined enough to come out and risk retribution and damaging their career prospects.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#83
post #36
post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me. > The reason there's so much alcohol is because it acts as a social lubricant. Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor. That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't…

There is more to it. Drinking establishments are great places for unstructured social engagements. There are not a lot of other venues that are similar.

When I was in Pune, I was speaking with people (hi Mayank!) who were trying to set up regular hacker meetups. Scheduling formal lectures was easy. But unstructured social engagements was much harder to set up. I suggested that we did it in bars in NY/London, but due to the cultural issues surrounding drinking in Maharashtra bars were out. This made organizing unstructured meetup time really difficult.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#84
post #41
post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. An analogy would be a conference where the evenings entertainment is a competition to see who can piss up a wall the highest. It wouldn't exclude women per se, because they don't have to join in if they don't want to, but you can reasonably…

this post brought to you by the bad-analogy-so-I-can-force-my-pet-peeves-onto-others-dept

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#85
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me. > The reason there's so much alcohol is because it acts as a social lubricant. Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor. That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't…

There is more to it. Drinking establishments are great places for unstructured social engagements. There are not a lot of other venues that are similar. When I was in Pune, I was speaking with people (hi Mayank!) who were trying to set up regular hacker meetups. Scheduling formal lectures was easy. But unstructured social engagements was much harder to set up. I suggested that we did it in bars in NY/London, but due…

Of course; drinking establishments make good money on these events so they have a lot of incentive to make this as easy as possible.

Come to think of it, that's actually a really good example of an area where we can put in a bit more effort to create more inclusive events.

In general it's about finding a format which lets attendees personally contribute to the venue's revenue, which sounds like a problem we should collectively be able to tackle.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#86
post #59
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about recovering alcoholics, people who avoid alcohol for religious reasons, and people under the drinking age ? There are clearly groups who don't or can't go to events because alcohol plays a prominent part (i.e other people drinking impacts them). There's obviously trade-offs between different groups of participants, but they need to be made consciously with awareness of the consequences rather than because t…

There are also a bunch people, like me, who can't (or shouldn't) drink because of medical conditions. At the same time though, it doesn't bother me when people are drinking in moderation and not set on getting hammered.

> At the same time though, it doesn't bother me when people are drinking in moderation and not set on getting hammered.

The OP describes a situation where it seems that moderation is being actively discouraged.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#87
post #82
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men. I cannot think of a single occurrence of physical violence or rape that occurred at a technical conference. Your projections over all women here are unwarranted. Maybe you feel this way because men are much more aggressive with other men? That would be a fair statement here.

There's plenty of actual harrasment to be found in this list of incidents: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Timeline_of_in... Keep in mind that this is just the subset of women who were strong and determined enough to come out and risk retribution and damaging their career prospects.

It's hard to take seriously a list of incidents that starts with "a model was photographed, and the photo was later cropped and used as a test image in image processing." Jumping to the very bottom, I see the Paul Graham non-incident and gendered pronouns.

(Admittedly, I didn't read too carefully after seeing obvious nonsense everywhere I looked. Perhaps a list which is curated and has silliness removed would be a more useful citation, or at least pointing out which incidents on this list you feel are serious.)

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#88
post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

I think he's talking about The Rule of Drunken Disparity: to a [drunk|sober] person, the most annoying person in the world is a [sober|drunk] person.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#89
post #36
post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me. > The reason there's so much alcohol is because it acts as a social lubricant. Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor. That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't…

It's not really like insisting on dirt bike racing. The article is like complaining that everyone else likes dirt bike racing and you don't and that makes you feel excluded.

edit: Although I can see the point about men drinking being potentially intimidating towards women.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#90
post #2

> It's the booze. You can't go anywhere, do anything or talk to anyone in the tech industry these days without a drink in your hand. If you try to fake it with a soda water you may as well give up trying to have insightful conversations after the first hour, because everyone else is wasted. If "everyone else is wasted" then why should they catter to the non-wasted demographic? Should they spoil everyone's fun to make…

"I understand that the STATED purpose of the event is not "getting wasted". But an unstated and real consideration for people attending is the opportunity of having one or several drinks with friends. Not everything operates on the "stated" level."

The author's point is all about this issue. Essentially, he's implying mission drift: the stated purpose of the event is being subverted, or even subsumed, by the unstated purpose (drinking). In his opinion, too much emphasis has been placed on the unstated, to the point where the stated is getting left by the wayside.

It's an interesting point, though it's very hard to prove, and the author weakens his argument with a lot of heavy-handed moralism of the "This has no place here!" variety.

Nevertheless, it's something to consider. When people drink at conferences, do they have to binge drink? And if a majority (or even a perceived majority) of attendees are indeed binge drinking, might that not exclude a fair number of hypothetical attendees who don't want to? It's not a stretch to think that a woman would be put off, or even physically intimidated, by the idea of being in a clear minority among a large crowd of young, drunk males. Similarly, older would-be attendees might opt out if they feel they're just going to show up to a glorified frat party. In the author's view, the problem isn't so much the presence of alcohol as it is an alcohol-centric conference culture.

The problem with this argument, of course, is its heavy reliance on subjective experience. One person's loud, annoying frat party is another person's good time. One observer's "everyone is binging" is another observer's "only a few people were, and they were embarrassing themselves." One person's "I felt excluded for being sober" is another person's "That's all in your head."

The best way to explore this issue is to get out of the subjective and into the empirical. I'd be very curious to see the results of polling among past and would-be attendees to gauge their feelings on this issue. For those who opted out, why did they? And what patterns emerge in their feedback? We'd probably run into some issues with sample size and selection, but something would be better than pure speculation.

We really have no place speaking on behalf of those who aren't present, no matter how small a minority they might be. (Cf. "tyranny of the majority" on Wikipedia or other sites.) The net solution probably isn't that every conference needs to go straight-edge. But at the same time, it's probably not the opposite: that everything is perfectly fine, and those who don't like it can go somewhere else. The author has raised an interesting point, and we should make an effort to hear from those who feel similarly.

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