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Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

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Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#91

Post by blowski »

shangxiao wrote: post #54
blowski wrote: post #9

On the whole, I agree with this. Unfortunately, as programming has gone mainstream, so too has its culture. In London at least, offices and coworking spaces seem to take more inspiration from Mad Magazine than Xerox PARC, like somehow we'd write better software if we were just a bit more wacky. I for one would love programming environments to look a bit more grown up and less like a frat party. edit: changed 'creativ…

So do you pine for the old IBM days?

Not exactly. It feels like the stereotypical programmer is shifting from being a bearded middle-aged white man to a privileged drunken 20-something man. Sure it's a stereotype, and there are plenty of folks doing very-well-thankyou-very-much within the programming community.

BUT I think the OP is saying (and I agree) that the 'free beer and pizza' culture is starting to dominate the public view of the programming community. So we get tools with offputtingly brotastic names, documentation that's littered with gratuitous profanity, meetups that reward the biggest drinkers rather than the most interesting.

So I would like to see a culture where the quiet folks can do a 9-to-5, then go home and enjoy church and family without missing out on key decisions and opportunities. If you want to go to a meetup, you can drink a lemonade without people making assumptions.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#92

Post by gtz60 »

calinet6 wrote: post #80

Point of data: nearly all conferences for all industries revolve largely around drinking. I worked in the outdoor industry for 5 years and went to the Outdoor Retailer trade show on the floor of the Salt Lake City convention center, which houses huge brands from all over the world. And what happened at 4pm every day of the conference? Every other booth or so tapped a keg or opened their coolers. They gave out free gl…

I think that our "grow up" attitude might contribute to more to the exclusion. What I mean is, saying "you need to change" isn't the best way to bring excluded people in. Even if we are right.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#93

Post by jiggy2011 »

mtrimpe wrote: post #85
yummyfajitas wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is more to it. Drinking establishments are great places for unstructured social engagements. There are not a lot of other venues that are similar. When I was in Pune, I was speaking with people (hi Mayank!) who were trying to set up regular hacker meetups. Scheduling formal lectures was easy. But unstructured social engagements was much harder to set up. I suggested that we did it in bars in NY/London, but due…

Of course; drinking establishments make good money on these events so they have a lot of incentive to make this as easy as possible. Come to think of it, that's actually a really good example of an area where we can put in a bit more effort to create more inclusive events. In general it's about finding a format which lets attendees personally contribute to the venue's revenue, which sounds like a problem we should co…

What would a more inclusive event look like? Going to a bar and having people socialize with a no-alcohol policy? That gives off a weird puritan vibe.

More formal/structured activities are likely to be more exclusionary since people have different ideas about what is fun. Or may not feel comfortable participating in things because of disabilities etc. In a bar at least people are free to make their own fun and come and go as they please.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#94

Post by onetwofiveten »

nahname wrote: post #71
mtrimpe wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me. > The reason there's so much alcohol is because it acts as a social lubricant. Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor. That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't…

>they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men. I cannot think of a single occurrence of physical violence or rape that occurred at a technical conference. Your projections over all women here are unwarranted. Maybe you feel this way because men are much more aggressive with other men? That would be a fair statement here.

While the danger of physical violence might not be significant, I can imagine that a big group of drunk men might be very intimidating for some women. We've all read complaints about unwelcome advances, harassment, inappropriate comments and sexist jokes at tech conferences. How much worse would it be with drunk men? How safe from harassment would you feel if you were woman? Imagine if you're in a group conversation and one guy keeps making dirty jokes and staring at your breasts when he says the punchline. Or if a guy is really overly friendly and keeps getting really close and bumping into you "by accident". Or if a guy keeps giving you overly personal compliments that are creeping you out, no matter how much you try to brush him off. In a room full of drunk strangers, you'd probably feel quite isolated, since you wouldn't have anyone you could reliably turn to for help. I can imagine all that being a bit intimidating, especially if you've experienced unpleasant behaviour from men at tech conferences in the past.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#95

Post by yummyfajitas »

mtrimpe wrote: post #85
yummyfajitas wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is more to it. Drinking establishments are great places for unstructured social engagements. There are not a lot of other venues that are similar. When I was in Pune, I was speaking with people (hi Mayank!) who were trying to set up regular hacker meetups. Scheduling formal lectures was easy. But unstructured social engagements was much harder to set up. I suggested that we did it in bars in NY/London, but due…

Of course; drinking establishments make good money on these events so they have a lot of incentive to make this as easy as possible. Come to think of it, that's actually a really good example of an area where we can put in a bit more effort to create more inclusive events. In general it's about finding a format which lets attendees personally contribute to the venue's revenue, which sounds like a problem we should co…

Personally I'm happy with bars and it seems like most people in the west are, so I'm not going to expend a lot of efforts fixing a non-problem. We don't need the alternative to have a tech community, and the fact of the matter is that any cultural choices we make will "exclude" some people.

(I put "exclude" in scare quotes because it's self-imposed exclusion.)

But if you find a good solution that might be deployable in India, let me know. Pune has a good tech scene but regular unstructured social events would definitely improve it.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#96

Post by rmk2 »

onetwofiveten wrote: post #70
rmk2 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If "everyone else is white" then why should they catter to the non-white demographic? Should they spoil everyone's fun to make a minority feel "included"? I understand that the STATED purpose of the event is not "being white". But an unstated and real consideration for people attending is the opportunity of being with one or several white friends. Not everything operates on the "stated" level. A better way would be t…

This is a silly analogy. Racism causes serious damage to people's lives. Participating in racial discrimination perpetuates racist attitudes and that is why all forms of racial discrimination that negatively affect minorities are seen as morally wrong in our society. ("Positive" racial discrimination is not seen as bad - see the Focus 100 hackathon.) It is not quite the same to cater strongly for people who drink ver…

It's not an analogy, it shows the questionable wording of the GP's claim, which, with minimal adaption, can be made into quite a different argument with a rather different feel to it. The whole point is that words and implications matter, in much the same way as the implication of "hacker culture == alcohol" matters. A potentially sensible point thus resembles a style of language that does all but helf reinforce the argument.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#97

Post by nebstrebor »

A few observations: 1) this isn't discrimination but it can encourage self-selection into or out of the group; 2) If tech firms, or a segment of the tech industry as a larger entity (e.g., rails, node, etc.) promote themselves, recruit, and try to be cool by sponsoring a bunch of drinking events, they'll attract programmers who like drinking events, and that will become part of the culture of the company and/or industry, since that's what brought them together, what they bonded over, and what they have in common outside of work. 3) There are other (a)venues to facilitate socialization (ice cream, coffee, etc.) including things like pizza or bowling where alcohol can be a part of it, but isn't the main event. Just like drinking, no one thing is for everyone, but that's ok. Consider it a venn diagram, where some in the industry seem to be only filling one circle.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#98

Post by nebstrebor »

oskarth wrote: post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

But certain beverages can exclude certain genders, religions, ethnicities and sexual orientations :)

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#99

Post by ryaniscool »

The irony is that by perpetuating stereotypes like "brogrammers", the author is actually encouraging a culture of exclusion.

The meme can be a little funny but I find myself stopping and thinking. "Wait, I go to the gym, I have a social life, I occassionally go to bars, does that mean I'm a brogrammer?".

The point of it is to ridicule certain behaviors in a social group (programmers). It says "if you don't fit my criteria for how a programmer should behave then you aren't one of us."

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#100

Post by [deleted] »

grandalf wrote: post #51

There is a strong tradition of puritanism in the US, and this post highlights some of the points of tension. Unfortunately, like many such arguments, the author makes what is largely a moral argument and amounts to finger shaking. The real reason brogrammers are entering the field is b/c money flows have shifted from things like investment banking and law into technology. It's the same reason more women, minorities,…

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