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Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

old.ryanfunduk.com

71–80 of 120 posts

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#71
post #36
post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me. > The reason there's so much alcohol is because it acts as a social lubricant. Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor. That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't…

>they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men.

I cannot think of a single occurrence of physical violence or rape that occurred at a technical conference. Your projections over all women here are unwarranted.

Maybe you feel this way because men are much more aggressive with other men? That would be a fair statement here.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#73
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's part of the problem though: socializing is a really big part of a lot of conferences, and if the people you want to meet are all in a bar, getting a drink, then it can be really hard to say "y'know, I'm just going to get me a sparkling water".

Sounds like a personal problem, because no, it's not hard to say that.

Indeed. I don't know specifically what kind of confs the OP actually goes to, but the geek/programming/tech ones I go to the culture is one of individuality - people RELISH in being different and "not with the crowd".

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#74

Is this a SV thing? Anyone in other cities care to chime in? I've been to a few "camps" and "confs" and tech meetup groups in Philadelphia, and none of them were at bars nor catered with free beer. "We're meeting up at X bar after if anyone wants to come" is a common thing to hear or even see on a schedule, but the actual events are about the panels/speakers/networking... usually with ample time to socialize.

That's part of the problem though: socializing is a really big part of a lot of conferences, and if the people you want to meet are all in a bar, getting a drink, then it can be really hard to say "y'know, I'm just going to get me a sparkling water".

I don't think that's an overly strong argument. But there is some meat to it. When people are at a party and booze is present that's one thing, and even if there is hard liquor it can still be possible to avoid drinking and have a good time while connecting with others. But there is a transition point where drinking becomes the focus of a party rather than just a, sometimes, part of it. And those sorts of parties tend to become exclusionary just by their very nature. As a mature adult, even one who drinks, it becomes tiresome and very non-fun to go to party after party where booze is the main attraction, where it's difficult to have a conversation because it's too loud or most people are too drunk to converse with, and where people get so trashed they start to have a bad time (not being able to stand, puking, passing out, whatever).

The problem is that the boundary line can be difficult to discern objectively. And when people who enjoy boozy parties try to judge them it's all to easy to dismiss the problems because it's just so damned much fun for them. But it is a serious problem, especially in a professional industry.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#75

I've just realised: if the age of the stereotypical american tech worker is 23 or so, that means these people have only been able to drink for a couple of years. Suddenly these posts make a lot more sense.

That's a good point. In the UK people can buy alcohol at 18 or drink it at home or with a meal earlier than that. By 23 everyone is 5+ years into their "drinking career" and (mostly) know their limits. "Getting hammered" for the sake of it is kinda passe at that stage too.

If US tech companies are full of people with the alcohol maturity of a British 19-20 year old then I can see why that might end badly.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#77
post #42

This post makes me feel excluded for drinking beer.

It makes me feel bit ashamed for liking beer.

Discussing while having beers has been excellent source of new ideas for me. While it hampers the ability to think logically it makes thinking outside of the box easier. And it makes the conversation more fluid.

I, like so many others, am so unsocial when absolutely sober that completely alcohol-free events are actually really hard.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#78
post #71
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me. > The reason there's so much alcohol is because it acts as a social lubricant. Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor. That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't…

>they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men. I cannot think of a single occurrence of physical violence or rape that occurred at a technical conference. Your projections over all women here are unwarranted. Maybe you feel this way because men are much more aggressive with other men? That would be a fair statement here.

You aren't paying attention then. There was a very high profile case of sexual assault within the tech industry, and at one of these booze filled conference parties as well, only a few months ago.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#79

Is this a SV thing? Anyone in other cities care to chime in? I've been to a few "camps" and "confs" and tech meetup groups in Philadelphia, and none of them were at bars nor catered with free beer. "We're meeting up at X bar after if anyone wants to come" is a common thing to hear or even see on a schedule, but the actual events are about the panels/speakers/networking... usually with ample time to socialize.

The handful of Philly tech meetups I've been to haven't even had 1/5th of the attendees go to the bar afterward. I'd like to think we have it under control here.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#80
Point of data: nearly all conferences for all industries revolve largely around drinking.

I worked in the outdoor industry for 5 years and went to the Outdoor Retailer trade show on the floor of the Salt Lake City convention center, which houses huge brands from all over the world. And what happened at 4pm every day of the conference? Every other booth or so tapped a keg or opened their coolers. They gave out free glasses ("swag"), free beer, free bottles.

And during that time, people knew that all the real connections and business was happening. You'd get far more networking done over two hours of beers and mingling than you'd accomplished all day trying to sell yourself to people with your best poker face and laptop demo.

It comes down to this: for the human species, it's more genuine to have fun together and build social ties based on real emotional connections and shared experience than to focus on a topic in isolation. I think this is the effect you notice, and it's not at all uncommon. In fact, I'd say compared to other experiences I've had, from college to the Outdoor Retailer trade shows, to now two companies I've worked for where alcohol has been present and accounted for, the programmers are the mildest of the set.

I get it, I really do. I've been there and I've been frustrated by the alcoholic focus of social gatherings, I've been frustrated by friends' desire to go to dingy bars just to drink, I've been a wallflower at frat parties watching the puzzling behavior of the curious species in front of me. I've done that thing, this thing you're frustrated about and writing about.

And then I grew up. I'll do the same thing, go out to bars, have just one drink, be stunned at all the drunk people, but I can also look at it from their perspective. These are all people trying to have fun in a life in which it's difficult to find meaning, trying to form connections in a world where being alone and cold and digital has become the norm, trying to break down the walls of their own frustrations and insecurities and be someone they didn't think they could be, but most of all, trying to stop trying so hard.

I don't know. It seems to make no sense, and yet it does in the context of a little experience and empathy. There's balance and moderation in everything, and certainly I agree that there's a little too much focus on excess, even if it is just a vocal minority being very obvious and loud. But a beer or two now and then to help you relax and enjoy life just a tiny bit more is certainly not to be discounted entirely as a negative, and the effect it has in a group setting is sometimes stunning to watch. So I feel some balance is required in this perspective.

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