Live data from Hacker News

IE7 users, we need to talk…

nursingjobs.us

141–150 of 182 posts

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#141
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for a F500 and we cannot upgrade to 8. We have antiquated web platforms that don't work without it. It sucks. A lot.

I really don't get this mentality, at all. Shouldn't at some point the cost of all websites in the world being broken on your corporate machines be a bigger problem than having to do some work on some antiquated LOB app you've considered rewriting anyway the last 5 years? Do these weirdo F500 still demand railroads to operate steam-trains for them, since that was the last thing they read about last time they received…

Couple of years back when I was still doing stuff for various big companies in Finland, I saw a setup that was quite common:

IE7 for old intranet applications, and Firefox for the rest of the web (and the newer apps)

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#142
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assumed the whole point of the offer was that they'd be able to run both computers. The old works-with-our-"enterprise"-software computer is kept alongside the new web-browsing computer.

Thats not really how enterprise computing policies work :) If its not centrally administrated, its probably not allowed. At least in the type of environment where people are still on IE7.

I think you missed a hyphen. I was referring to the horrible limited software that many companies use that always seems to have "enterprise" in the name.

If you're stuck in the sort of toxic environment where a new free machine is not allowed because "policy" then nothing can help you.

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#143
post #138

If we as software engineers really cared, a page like that would never exist.

I disagree. Engineering is all about choosing tradeoffs. Freeways aren't built with a slow lane to support horse and buggy users, because that would be an irresponsible use of resources. For most sites, supporting IE7 would be a complete waste of money.

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. So far cloud services have proven themselves too risky for a lot of people as they suffer from availability problems (Azure), data retention problems (Atlassian data loss), security problems (NSA anyone?), churn and inconsistency (Google apps), data protection and regional law (Amazon S3). I could go on all day. This isn't really an option for a lot of people.

My larger issue is that the UI gets tweaked constantly. To the point where the app you originally purchased and the one you're currently using may not longer resemble each other and there's nothing you can do about it when it's hosted.

This is a big problem - you are right. Users don't like things changing either. It ranges from a few minutes to adapt to throwing toys out of the pram and having to be retrained on something minor. This is an unfortunately reality.

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#145
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These are now no longer supported by the vendors with no upgrade path so people are stuck with IE7 whilst applications are rewritten or disposed of...I know a company that has taken 4 years to rewrite an ERP system away from this model. The compatibility flag deals with some rendering issues but it doesn't change the script engine or the ActiveX hosting situation. The company should light a fire under the ass of the…

In the spirit of maintaining my argument... The company should light a fire under the ass of their vendor or development department if they're being forced to live with some very serious security risks. The vendor doesn't exist any more. This is a realistic problem. They had source escrow which results in them hiring a development team to port it. This has taken 4 years, including retraining all 5000 users and portin…

>The vendor doesn't exist any more. This is a realistic problem.

Yes, it's a realistic problem of "if your vendor goes extinct, you should start moving." If you're in charge and you let your business get stuck in this spot, the liquid lunches need to stop.

>This has taken 4 years, including retraining all 5000 users and porting data. This isn't some shitty TODO list app or an Intranet - it's a full ERP with over 2 million lines of code and 500Gb of raw non-binary data.

5000 users and 500Gb isn't that large. Lines of code is a god-awful measure of work, especially in a verbose language like Java or C#.

I feel as if you have a flippant stance towards web-applications, which I promise you is incredibly misguided. Not everyone here is making TODO apps with Ruby.

>Because the 30 year paid for and guaranteed support lifecycle isn't over yet. Not only that, it's tied to the specific hardware platform which is an embedded 80286.

Where to begin on this? To keep it somewhat related to the parent thread, I'd suggest that code for embedded systems is a different world than sharecropping on a Microsoft technology (or a code-bloat ERP almost certainly containing layers of awful sedimentary hacks placed by numerous outsourcing companies). In 2007, you had your head in the sand (while drinking the koolaid) if you thought ActiveX was a long-game.

>I use the phrase engineer loosely with respect to software as it has in the last decade or so come to mean a different thing. It's gone from individual who carefully plans and creates something with meticulous attention to detail and extensive knowledge of requirements to individual who makes something with little thought.

Oh come on, this is just ageist. Was the guy that wrote something that only works on IE6/7/8 thinking ahead? What about an engineer that created a scenario in which hardware can't be updated? Unless your code is going on a satellite, congrats on over-engineering a solution that only works in a given architecture.

With most consumers thinking of computers as tools that access the web, thinking that you don't have to be incredibly reactive to change is myopic. Do you think that writing maintainable stacks for a changing consumer preferences and patterns is something done without planning?

(before you scoff at anyone that writes code for the web, keep in mind that you previously stated 'IE7 isn't going away until April 11, 2017' as a defense for not 'hanging software')

>Yes, it's actually my job to ensure that due diligence is done and put good engineering standards and technology in place.

This is a different world if you're writing something for an embedded chip that will be made for 20 years. If your customer thinks that she can predict needs for the business 10 years in advance, she's about to have her lunch eaten by another company. The world doesn't work in a "we sell bikes like _this_" way anymore. Give me 6 months and I can write you a SCM and a CLM that will work for the next 10 years _as long as you run it on this architecture with this software installed_, but that's not as useful as "give me 3 months and you're be good for 5 years, we'll evaluate what need in 4 years" approach.

>Industry? There are two industries at the moment. The one in the technology press and everywhere else.

The "technology press" is media and investors.

>I firmly circulate in the latter. There is not a noisy presence but a large and realistic one that makes critical cogs turn behind the scenes. Whether or not this is "antiquated" or not is purely conjecture.

You circulate in the "everywhere else?"

The 'critical cogs' are maintained by kernel, hardware, and protocol devs that are typically paid by a company that doesn't obsess over running ancient code on dinosaur hardware because that doesn't scale with changing demand.

With respect, I feel like you're drawing a line in the sand and being smug because you imagine your problem domain to be on somehow more "pure" side of engineering.

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#146
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the spirit of maintaining my argument... The company should light a fire under the ass of their vendor or development department if they're being forced to live with some very serious security risks. The vendor doesn't exist any more. This is a realistic problem. They had source escrow which results in them hiring a development team to port it. This has taken 4 years, including retraining all 5000 users and portin…

>The vendor doesn't exist any more. This is a realistic problem. Yes, it's a realistic problem of "if your vendor goes extinct, you should start moving." If you're in charge and you let your business get stuck in this spot, the liquid lunches need to stop. >This has taken 4 years, including retraining all 5000 users and porting data. This isn't some shitty TODO list app or an Intranet - it's a full ERP with over 2 mi…

Both of your points are valid.

And frankly it does really depend on the company on which point is more valid.

At the end of the day, csmithuk viewpoint is a solution/enterprise architect's view point which caters more to the overall business needs of a company.

And based on my experience, the challenge of getting any new technology in a company that is mature and successful is really hard. The challenge of changing the status quo once that tech has become embedded in their business processes is twice has hard. There is always a benefit/cost ratio. The cost is not just development - it's training, its documentation, its lost time, etc.

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#147
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try teaching the HR officer who is afraid of the maximize button to use a VM. Even Windows 7 XP mode is scary - the chrome is different.

That's like a carpenter saying he's afraid to pick up a hammer. How can you be an employee and at the same time be afraid of doing your job?

You would think, but there are plenty of barely competent tradesmen around. Why should it be any different here?

There use to be a phrase referring to wood workers [edit, my mistake - boat caulkers], 'His mallet rings.' Meant as a complement. When you've got the skill to do it, the beats of your mallet create a particular pattern of sound. It's a different mindset to just picking up a hammer ... or a nail gun as the case may be ... and smashing something in. It's, pride in your effectiveness, a dedication to get better at a task.

It's pretty rare to find someone these days whose hammer rings.

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#148
post #99
post #71

> IE7 users make up 1.22% of our traffic right now, and this will decline as more computers are upgraded and can use modern browsers. No computer exists that is able to run IE7 but not IE8. And because IE7 came out way past the "optimized for IE" age, I doubt there is software around that requires 7 and doesn't work with 8. This is in contrast to 6 which is what IE was stuck in for years, so software began depending…

Note that the compat mode may mean that you are miscounting IE8 users in IE7 compat mode as IE7 if you are doing a naive user-agent detection (I only mention it because I did and started blocking IE8 users!) Both will emit "MSIE 7.0" in the user-agent, but IE8 will have Trident/4 while IE7 lacks any such token. MSIE 11 does away with "MSIE" in the user-agent altogether. There's a X-UA-Compatible header (and meta vari…

IE11 in compatibility mode does indeed keep the MSIE value... here is mine:

User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; Trident/7.0; SLCC2; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30729; Media Center PC 6.0; .NET4.0C; .NET4.0E)

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#149
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for a F500 and we cannot upgrade to 8. We have antiquated web platforms that don't work without it. It sucks. A lot.

Doesn't MSIE8 have a MSIE7 compatability mode that basically runs the IE7 rendering engine in a wrapper (like IE tab). Can't you use MSIE7 on the internal system and have a recent browser for web access?

> Doesn't MSIE8 have a MSIE7 compatability mode that basically runs the IE7 rendering engine in a wrapper

Of course not, that was obviously the right way to implement this so they had to do something worse first. IE7 compatibility mode works plausibly well for visual display but as eonwe's link pointed out there are still some key differences.

That link, however, doesn't really mention the worst part: IE8-as-IE7 does not have a compatible DOM or JavaScript engine. They're using the IE8 JS engine under the hood which is generally better but, among other things, it started raising exceptions for previously ignored bad code. I found out about this shortly after IE8 was released when my then-employer's Oracle apps stopped working because they used a really old version of a UI toolkit which at one point set zIndex to null before assigning it a new value. This is clearly invalid according to the specs but prior to IE8 it appears that nothing threw an exception. I ended up patching the JS file because getting a patch would have taken aeons and Oracle support actually called me asking if they could redistribute my work to other customers!

The good news is that Microsoft finally came up with the right way way to do this in MED-V, which will seem very familiar to anyone who's used e.g. VMware Fusion: you run antique versions of IE seamlessly inside a VM and the host's Internet Explorer can be configured to load certain sites inside the guest so you only take the performance / feature / security hit for your legacy enterprise apps instead of the entire web:

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-US/video/Ff945178

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#150
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you're on IE7 you're probably on it because MegaCorp's Intranet Application '02 Enterprise Edition doesn't work on anything else." This is what virtual machines are for...

Try teaching the HR officer who is afraid of the maximize button to use a VM. Even Windows 7 XP mode is scary - the chrome is different.

It's worth noting that Microsoft put a lot of effort into making that experience less painful with seamless VM integration:

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-US/video/Ff945178

There are two reasons why most places don't use this: they've been skimping on RAM or their IT people don't want to learn something new. Neither reflect well on their IT management.

Post reply on HN