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IE7 users, we need to talk…

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Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#111

Post by TheZenPsycho »

csmithuk wrote: post #108
Nilzor wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can respect your advice in this context with regards to the cloud, but I'm not so sure about web technology in general, if by web you mean HTML5/JS/CSS3. If you download Firefox 26 today along with your favourite OS and store it on a USB stick, you can restore it in 10 years an run the exact same web applications. That's not really technologically different from storing .NET Framework 4.0 or Java8 on USB stick, to…

Yes by web I mean HTML5, JS and CSS3, REST and HTTP/SPDY. Yes I can snapshot everything if I want but the problem with the web is that it is a general purpose tool. It should be a single portal into everything both local and remote sites and applications. Unfortunately, the rate of change is incredibly large for Internet-facing applications. Intranet-facing applications are left behind. As browsers evolve, which they…

You've come to exactly the wrong conclusion. web sites from 1992 still work on browsers today. it's IE proprietary activex stuff that's broken and changing rapidly.

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#112

Post by tomswartz07 »

s_kilk wrote: post #93
fredsted wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like a carpenter saying he's afraid to pick up a hammer. How can you be an employee and at the same time be afraid of doing your job?

It might be hard to believe, but there are plenty of people in the world whos job has nothing to do with being tech-savvy. In this specific case the persons job is to manage HR process, not to keep their IT infrastructure up to date. The computer and browser are just tools.

The above comment still holds. If your job is to use the tool all day, every day, one would expect that you would learn how it works.

I see the same issues as well where I work in education. Teachers, whose job is literally all about learning, are terrified to learn about technology tools for their classroom.

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#113

Post by GFischer »

barake wrote: post #57
stephen_g wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you're on IE7 you're probably on it because MegaCorp's Intranet Application '02 Enterprise Edition doesn't work on anything else." This is what virtual machines are for...

Try teaching the HR officer who is afraid of the maximize button to use a VM. Even Windows 7 XP mode is scary - the chrome is different.

I've seen 80 year olds being retrained.

If it's "learn to use a VM or lose your job", coupled with a good computer basics course, I'm pretty sure he/she will be properly motivated.

I work at a megacorp that recently switched the local branch to terminal servers + virtual machines, not one has had any difficulty with the retraining, and the previous megacorp I worked for had a 70 year old using a pretty complex environment.

My grandmother went from being afraid of clicking a button to being a decent internet user, using both IE and Firefox (since her hospital's website didn't work in IE).

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#114

Post by davb »

csmithuk wrote: post #108
Nilzor wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can respect your advice in this context with regards to the cloud, but I'm not so sure about web technology in general, if by web you mean HTML5/JS/CSS3. If you download Firefox 26 today along with your favourite OS and store it on a USB stick, you can restore it in 10 years an run the exact same web applications. That's not really technologically different from storing .NET Framework 4.0 or Java8 on USB stick, to…

Yes by web I mean HTML5, JS and CSS3, REST and HTTP/SPDY. Yes I can snapshot everything if I want but the problem with the web is that it is a general purpose tool. It should be a single portal into everything both local and remote sites and applications. Unfortunately, the rate of change is incredibly large for Internet-facing applications. Intranet-facing applications are left behind. As browsers evolve, which they…

I agree. We live in an unfortunate age of extreme technological instability. I think this is typified by the rolling updates we're seeing in many browsers, package-managed applications and operating systems.

I do enjoy the new functionality continuous upgrades bring, but in general they usually result in breaking changes or disagreeable UX changes that users must endure in order to remain compatible with the ever-moving target of modern distributed/web applications.

Some days I feel that I really am alone in the desire to see technology slow down, stabilise, become more predictable and be long-term (10+ year) dependable.

The HN echo chamber of fast-moving cloud/social apps and flavour of the month programming languages feels like it can, in some ways, be harmful to our industry and its reputation. I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but it's easy to forget that 95% of the software out there needs the stability and long-term predictability that "modern", SaaS services just can't offer.

I want my software to remain usable for more than three {browser version increments, Android versions, day job successors;}.

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#115

Post by spellboots »

eropple wrote: post #69
crisnoble wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a PC perfectly maintained from 1994 until now would be hopeless in today's infrastructure. Not if they upgraded both their hardware and software along the way. Even without upgrades, their computer might function just fine, but they should not expect to browse websites created with technologies that were not yet dreamed of when their computer was born. People expect to make phone calls on their 5 year old phones, b…

> Not if they upgraded both their hardware and software along the way. The "upgrades" necessary would be a new computer in all but case, so unless your name is Theseus, you've got a new computer.

> Theseus

Or Trigger...

http://www.frequency.com/video/only-fools-horses-truth-behin...

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#116

Post by csmithuk »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #111
csmithuk wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes by web I mean HTML5, JS and CSS3, REST and HTTP/SPDY. Yes I can snapshot everything if I want but the problem with the web is that it is a general purpose tool. It should be a single portal into everything both local and remote sites and applications. Unfortunately, the rate of change is incredibly large for Internet-facing applications. Intranet-facing applications are left behind. As browsers evolve, which they…

You've come to exactly the wrong conclusion. web sites from 1992 still work on browsers today. it's IE proprietary activex stuff that's broken and changing rapidly.

Actually no they don't unless they are a really small subset of HTML/CSS.

The box model was broken for years, don't even get me started on tables, JavaScript is the most loosely defined language to have ever existed, there have been several different document parser models (HTML, XHTML, HTML5) it's unreal. At best, most browsers these days estimate what they are doing, diving into some wierd mode full of edge cases purely by accident if you step on the wrong stone.

As for proprietary extensions, they are the most stable in IE. The IE8 change was the first since IE4 and it was primarily a security model change. Now we have NaCl on the horizon (ActiveX v2) and every vendor fighting their own extensions into the "standard" by buddying up for a new "standards" group.

It's a minefield which throwing critical applications into is a bad move both from a logical and risk perspective.

I'm not saying it lacks utility, but it's a risky proposition for a product that needs a defined lifecycle.

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#117

Post by josteink »

ajpos wrote: post #46
chrismorgan wrote: post #5

Cannot all IE7 users upgrade to IE8?

I work for a F500 and we cannot upgrade to 8. We have antiquated web platforms that don't work without it. It sucks. A lot.

I really don't get this mentality, at all.

Shouldn't at some point the cost of all websites in the world being broken on your corporate machines be a bigger problem than having to do some work on some antiquated LOB app you've considered rewriting anyway the last 5 years?

Do these weirdo F500 still demand railroads to operate steam-trains for them, since that was the last thing they read about last time they received a telegram?

In what world do these people live where perpetually staying in the past is not a problem?

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#118

Post by louthy »

chris_wot wrote: post #109

"Wayne Gretzky once said “skate where the puck is going, not where it’s been”" No, no he did not. Steve Jobs said that Wayne Gretzky said "skate where the puck is going, not where it's been". However, I'm sure one day Wayne Gretzky will quote Steve Jobs saying that he once said that you must skate to where the puck is going, not where it's been. That day will be quite awesome. On that note, what happens when the puck…

while(true);

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#119

Post by timje1 »

lmm wrote: post #89
pilif wrote: post #71

> IE7 users make up 1.22% of our traffic right now, and this will decline as more computers are upgraded and can use modern browsers. No computer exists that is able to run IE7 but not IE8. And because IE7 came out way past the "optimized for IE" age, I doubt there is software around that requires 7 and doesn't work with 8. This is in contrast to 6 which is what IE was stuck in for years, so software began depending…

IE8 in IE7-compatibility mode does not always render the same as IE7 - I know because it broke a site I worked on. So it's not that simple.

Worse than that, IE8 in IE7 compatibility mode has some regression bugs that you won't have seen since IE5.

Re: IE7 users, we need to talk…

#120

Post by mjolk »

csmithuk wrote: post #106
pilif wrote: post #71

> IE7 users make up 1.22% of our traffic right now, and this will decline as more computers are upgraded and can use modern browsers. No computer exists that is able to run IE7 but not IE8. And because IE7 came out way past the "optimized for IE" age, I doubt there is software around that requires 7 and doesn't work with 8. This is in contrast to 6 which is what IE was stuck in for years, so software began depending…

Actually no, you are completely wrong. It might be a popular opinion but it's wrong. Some facts: 1. Firstly, there are a couple of COM APIs that were broken with IE8 which mean that some horrible "intranet applications" that use ActiveX won't work with IE8 properly. They worked fine with IE6 and IE7. These are now no longer supported by the vendors with no upgrade path so people are stuck with IE7 whilst applications…

>These are now no longer supported by the vendors with no upgrade path so people are stuck with IE7 whilst applications are rewritten or disposed of...I know a company that has taken 4 years to rewrite an ERP system away from this model. The compatibility flag deals with some rendering issues but it doesn't change the script engine or the ActiveX hosting situation.

The company should light a fire under the ass of their vendor or development department if they're being forced to live with some very serious security risks.

>I personally maintain software that was written in 1988.

Why are you supporting software that is a quarter of a century old? If it has undergone significant rewrites to work on those new-fangled color monitors, then you understand why things need to be upgraded.

>People are very quick to hang software, particularly the non-engineering background trendy startup pushing culture. IE7 isn't going away until April 11, 2017.

What is "non-engineering background trendy startup pushing culture" supposed to mean? While HN has a charlatan element, you can't legitimately think that the startup culture here isn't dominated by engineers.

>I'm recommending people away from the web and the cloud for business critical applications these days.

Do you also scream "la la la" while the tips of your fingers are lodged in your ears whenever in architecture meetings? A web browser is an ideal consumer (ubiquitous, cross-platform, cheap) of a large number of business applications and high availability demands writing software that's internet-aware (that feels so strange to even have to type).

>The churn, culture and attitude (as your post outlines so readily) is very negative and a realistic 10 year cycle isn't possible any more.

It sounds like your perception of the industry is antiquated. A 10 year cycle without maintenance to keep the codebase secure/running on modern hardware/platforms?

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