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Revolution in Kiev

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361–370 of 377 posts

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#361
post #347
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two or more big firms are better than having one violent monopoly. Furthermore, if people are well aware those are actually firms, it becomes very hard for those firms to bullshit people into obedience. Extortion wouldn't be called taxation, it would be called extortion and everyone will be able to see that. War wouldn't be called war, but would be called murder. And most likely people would rebel against that. So, i…

But you seem to be unhappy with the current system of the hundred or more big firms and are advocating disbanding these current governments and switching from this to even smaller firms. I'm confused because I believe this will naturally lead to these firms growing into larger firms with no oversight by the public at large and thus eventually give you even fewer options. As to what it's called; the extortion would be…

> As to what it's called; the extortion would be called a compulsory service fee, war would be called large scale protective operations.

You're missing the point. Paying service fees is never taxation because the result of not paying for a service is denying that service, while the result of not paying taxes is forceful alienation of property and possibly imprisonment. I am yet to hear of a private company who threatened its customers with all that if they cancel their subscription. If this happens in the free market with the said protection agency, my point is that it will be called extortion and recognized for what it is. That's important because the threshold of compliance in people lowers when they recognize they are being robbed.

> Prices are set to what the market will pay, in this case it's as close to revolt as the business can get away with.

I don't understand this point. What prevents a competitor (say, a big investor) from entering the market and establishing another big protection firm with lower prices and better service? If you say "they all will form a cartel" then I will point out that cartels are always very unstable and someone deserts or another outsider disrupts the market, historically this has been true.

> I would also like to point out that I don't disagree with your assertion that their are negatives with a government controlled monopoly on law enforcement, I disagree with the idea that a free market system for it would not be subject to worse corruption/abuse.

What could be worse than conducting a theft from people calling it taxation, then be bribed by corporations and using those tax money to serve corporate interests? Simple math: a company bribes an official with $1, the official spends $10 of somebody else's stolen money (so it doesn't cost him anything) for that company interests and that makes the company $100. In the free market, companies at least deal with the money they actually made, so there's no "free" money for them and no one to bribe.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#362
post #94

This is an amazingly low tech revolution. The primary weapons of the protestors are: smoke, flammable liquid, rocks, shields and giant slingshots. These tools could have been used in the Peloponeasian War as easily as in 2014. It really says something about the character of the revolutionaries that they are willing to fight without modern weapons or equipment. I don't know enough about the Urkaine to asses the merit…

"This is an amazingly low tech revolution"

I don't understand a thing of this paragraph. Are they supposed to throw each other Iphones instead of stones? Should they SMS the authorities to death? Have ever been any other way of revolting for those who have no access to assault rifles?

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#363
post #350
post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, note that firms cannot grow indefinitely, enormous corporations we see today are actually products of this governmental system, in which they bribe government for regulations and deny competitors opportunities. A great example of a market force that prevented an entity from growing is a recent Bitcoin incident in which one hashing pool was close to 51% of hashing power, which would give it an ability to double…

I understand that they cannot grow indefinitely but being the sole survivor in a city is not far fetched. Ofcourse the higher income with less service in that city gives them additional funds to operate in other cities. As to your second point nothing makes me think it's impossible when people are paying attention to the business. But I believe that apathy is a large factor. Not only that but in this unregulated worl…

If there's apathy it means people don't care. If they cared they would do something. For example, they would be paying a number of independent market research and consumer protection agencies to keep an eye on all other companies, so they wouldn't have to do it all by themselves. So, those companies would pretty much do the regulating/info function of a government, except that no one can force anybody else to use their service. That is, you DON'T HAVE to pay (as with taxes), but if you like, you CAN. That is the crucial difference.

Again, if people are apathetic about something, then what right on earth does a government have to extract money from them and teach them what's good and what's bad on this money, regardless of whether they agreed with that or not?

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#364
I'm very sorry that our slavic neighbours behave so badly. It is not a revolution, it's the rampage of anarchy and laziness. Just another approval of the 95% rule. Ukraine has no strong elite. People who come to power are just short-sighted beggars. They see the golden antelope and ask her for gold, more gold[1]. And finish like the greedy raja. That's obvious and predictable.

It's the greatest diplomatic failure to push dumb poor people to power. Hi there, western polittechnology! Look at Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Ukraine(so-called "orange revo" in 2004 and now - just the same) Promote quasi-democracy and push the weak leader to power. You'll get unstabilized entity, unable to produce any decent products or services and... just.. repeat when it seems to get a little stronger than needed?!

If you want a real success story, read the fucking history of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution Well that's the real deal. Just this for instance: "The Russian Empire, which had withdrawn from the war in 1917 after the October Revolution, lost much of its western frontier as the newly independent nations of Estonia, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland were carved from it. Romania took control of Bessarabia in April 1918."

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWsP71Odht4

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you understand the Ukrainian Russians could you please clarify why they support the dictator? Are they not intelligent enough?

No not at all. IMO that has nothing to do with intelligence/education. The issue is twofold. First, most voters in Ukraine have known the USSR and it does skew their views. The "good old times" seem too good to let go. The propaganda machine was strong back then and the idea that Russia could lead the entire region into its former glory does have some appeal. Second, the people with ties to both Russia and Ukraine mi…

Ok. So they are rather brainwashed than stupid. In other words they strive for such irrational things like glory rather than better life conditions. Is the actual situation any better than it used to be in soviet times regarding unemployment, affordable healthcare, education?

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No not at all. IMO that has nothing to do with intelligence/education. The issue is twofold. First, most voters in Ukraine have known the USSR and it does skew their views. The "good old times" seem too good to let go. The propaganda machine was strong back then and the idea that Russia could lead the entire region into its former glory does have some appeal. Second, the people with ties to both Russia and Ukraine mi…

Ok. So they are rather brainwashed than stupid. In other words they strive for such irrational things like glory rather than better life conditions. Is the actual situation any better than it used to be in soviet times regarding unemployment, affordable healthcare, education?

To clarify, by "glory" really I mean both pride in the country and quality of life combined. Brainwashed might be a strong word. Mislead and misremembering is probably more accurate. This is as far as I'm concerned the same thing that happens in the US where Tea partiers talk about how great America was 50 years ago (it wasn't, unless you were a white male). This is the same nostalgia for things that weren't really there but seemed like they were.

As far as actual conditions, I cannot judge this well. I left Ukraine for the US about 14 years ago. I have family and friends there, but I cannot tell exactly if things are better or worse than pre-1990. I can say that they are definitely not good currently. Median income is low, prices are high, good jobs are scarce. Education is something I don't know much about.

The healthcare system there is technically state run but practically is what I would call "microcapitalism": you have to pay effectively a bribe to your physician and you have to buy all of his/her supplies for whatever procedure you need. It's almost a libertarian heaven: you negotiate what you need done and can shop around for any medication and supplies needed. If anything it's a case study for how a market solution like this means no quality control on the care you receive. If you cannot afford the "premium" care where you pay the doctor directly, you will just end up waiting weeks, months, or years for the government to pay for your treatment, by which point your condition is likely to get worse. There are no charities, etc. to step up and pay for you: the market does not want those. Even if it did, my gut feeling would be that the charities would simply fall prey to corruption and would become money laundering machines.

An example of this is my grandfather that about a year ago went for his physical and needed to have blood drawn and to get vaccinations. The doctor told him to go across the street to a pharmacy to buy needles and vaccines. My grandfather spent the next two hours waiting in line for service, and ended up paying a few pennies for all of this. The doctors cannot hold onto this stuff themselves since they or their staff will just sell it for cash out of the back door.

Another example is my other grandfather who passed away a few years ago of colon cancer. He could have been saved with a colonoscopy, except he had one about 10 years prior to that and the hospital did not have any anesthetic. Naturally he did not want to experience the same pain again, so he never went back, developed colon cancer and died in horrible pain. His nephew ended up going to a hospital, grabbing a random doctor off his shift, paying him about $1000 in cash to drive 50 miles away to help my grandfather with his pain in his last few days.

Sorry for the rant, but you did ask :)

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#368
post #240
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only true worthwhile revolution comes when people realize they don't need anyone to rule them. When the majority realizes that, no more revolutions and violence can follow. Indeed, in an anarchy, you don't have any regime to stage revolutions against. But violence? Oh, you'd get plenty of that. It would just be distributed, instead of organized: survival of the fittest.

States did a great job convincing people that anarchy == violence. Yet what is the evidence for that? If you look at history, an average state over the course of, say, 10 years, murdered more people than the bloodiest of all anarchists did over his lifetime. And then you should also understand that anarchy doesn't mean no laws and policing. It means that people choose to live by the laws they want (and not by voting,…

Who will take care of the disabled and the elderly?

If your answer to that is to let it depend on the goodwill of the community/family (to do it themselves or pay syndicates to do it), you're setting things up for a large number of people to be left rotting in the streets.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#369
post #363
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that they cannot grow indefinitely but being the sole survivor in a city is not far fetched. Ofcourse the higher income with less service in that city gives them additional funds to operate in other cities. As to your second point nothing makes me think it's impossible when people are paying attention to the business. But I believe that apathy is a large factor. Not only that but in this unregulated worl…

If there's apathy it means people don't care. If they cared they would do something. For example, they would be paying a number of independent market research and consumer protection agencies to keep an eye on all other companies, so they wouldn't have to do it all by themselves. So, those companies would pretty much do the regulating/info function of a government, except that no one can force anybody else to use the…

Why in the world would I pay these regulators? It's an extra cost and their service is provided even if I don't pay because somebody else will pay for it. Why should these protection firms cooperate. How do we know the regulators aren't influenced by whichever of the protection firms they buy from? Remember it's only illegal for these regulators to lie if your own protection company supports the particular laws that require this other company to be accurate.

If people are apathetic about the property rights of their neighbour what right does the government have to step in and stop them taking that property?

In fact how would that even work in this pay for protection system? The neighbour will buy into a protection firm that will take the property back and a fee? If they can't pay the fee they will be placed in a work camp to deter the same action from others? Unfortunately the cost for board is higher than what your paid in the work camp. Is this perfectly acceptable under your system? If not how is it prevented? Does that man buy protection from a second company that will go in and storm the workcamp? If you're too poor to buy protection from one of the companies how is it illegal for them to just be collected and put in work camps? I just can't see your system of pay for protection being less abusive than one with a government.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#370
post #361
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you seem to be unhappy with the current system of the hundred or more big firms and are advocating disbanding these current governments and switching from this to even smaller firms. I'm confused because I believe this will naturally lead to these firms growing into larger firms with no oversight by the public at large and thus eventually give you even fewer options. As to what it's called; the extortion would be…

> As to what it's called; the extortion would be called a compulsory service fee, war would be called large scale protective operations. You're missing the point. Paying service fees is never taxation because the result of not paying for a service is denying that service, while the result of not paying taxes is forceful alienation of property and possibly imprisonment. I am yet to hear of a private company who threat…

I didn't miss the point, I was being flippant in that they can call it what they like and there is little you can do about it, you can call it extortion among your friends but that doesn't change the outcome. I also think you're forgetting what service they're providing. If you aren't paying anyone for protection then anyone can rob you and no one will be enforcing consequences on them for you as you have no protection, anyone can break contract with you as you have no option to enforce the contract. Maybe you're rich enough to hire a personal bodyguard but the majority of people can not. The majority of people effectively have to pay this “service” fee or move or be insecure in their possessions.

Why doesn't another competitor enter the market? Well considering the market the competitor needs to be big enough to stand up to a literal attack by the incumbent. In the best case the incumbent and the newcomer both end up being about the same size and they compete. Alternatively as this hypothetical investor who has the capital to get about half of this large market I would do better spending the same investment on a smaller market were I can capture the whole market and force a higher percentage return on the investment. You can look at comcast/time warner to get an idea why these two big encumbents might not compete even without forming a cartel. If someone was to point me at google fiber as an example of how the market will be disrupted I'd point out the fact that the local companies are trying to use the legal system to thwart google fibers growth even within the city and if these companies were the enforcement of the legal system I don't particularly believe google would get a fair shake of the stick.

What could be worse? What could be worse than conducting a theft from people calling it a service fee, then be bribed by corporations and not delivering the service to serve a corporate interests? Simple math: a company pays (it's not a bribe it's legal) the protection company with $1, the protection company allows $10 of somebody's stolen property to be used (so it doesn't cost them anything) for that company and that makes the company $100. In a system with a democratic government, the official has to at least pay lip service to working for the public good and it's illegal to accept that payment.

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