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South Korea bans unremovable mobile bloatware

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Re: South Korea bans unremovable mobile bloatware

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you just disproved free market economics with "very simple" reasoning along the lines of "their assumptions are wrong".

Yes, many of the conclusions are wrong, because the assumptions are wrong.

As usual arguments against free market ideologies are based on misunderstanding.

They don't assume an idealized market model and don't derive conclusions from it. I don't see why I should elaborate when you're happy with simple contradictions and patronizing comments like "you fell for a simple trick".

Re: South Korea bans unremovable mobile bloatware

#92
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but you're committing an error in your reasoning: one doesn't need to assume that markets are perfect to oppose regulations; one just needs to consider that, as bad as free markets can be, they're never worse than the political system that creates the regulations. Arnold Kling endorses free markets not because they are foolproof or flawless. They aren’t. Arnold supports them because the alternative is gene…

Are you just pointing out an error in his/her reasoning, or do you actually believe what you said? If the latter, do you consider regulation regarding food safety, medical profession and energy industry bad?

I'm playing Devil's advocate in at least half of what I write on political issues; often I don't have a strong personal opinion, since I'm reasonably aware of my ignorance.

Re: South Korea bans unremovable mobile bloatware

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but you're committing an error in your reasoning: one doesn't need to assume that markets are perfect to oppose regulations; one just needs to consider that, as bad as free markets can be, they're never worse than the political system that creates the regulations. Arnold Kling endorses free markets not because they are foolproof or flawless. They aren’t. Arnold supports them because the alternative is gene…

So you think that antitrust laws are wrong?

You shouldn't assume that I think regulations are bad from what I wrote; I didn't say it was my position.

Re: South Korea bans unremovable mobile bloatware

#94
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-trust laws are at least poorly implemented, and at worst intended to protect local special interests (against the trusts and their descendants). > "[W]e have no coherent and comprehensive account that differentiates between legal and illegal practices. Nor do we have any good way of devising remedies in complex cases that don’t create more distortions than the illegal practices they are supposed to eliminate." […

That's possible (I have a very vague knowledge of the antitrust laws in the US). But a good antitrust law is better than no antitrust law. Do you think that a secret price-setting agreement between AT&T, Verizon and Sprint should be legal? It would be profitable to these companies. In a model, competetive market, this wouldn't work, because a competitor would immediately appear on stage and started offering equivalen…

Have you considered that the US mobile market may be less competitive because of other regulations? Who assigns spectrum and shuts down unlicensed providers?

Re: South Korea bans unremovable mobile bloatware

#95
post #68
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People seem to think that the free market will automagically drive towards their arbitrary measure of goodness because, in theory, if consumers share that arbitrary measure of goodness they won't buy something that doesn't offer that. But in reality, there is only one truism in free-markets, businesses need to make money and that sometimes runs contrary to whatever issue I personally think the market should optimize…

This is a straw-man; while some may believe all consumers have and require perfect information, not all free-marketers do. If there are many under-informed consumers, these will often select pseudo-randomly, and the few well-informed consumers will select well. The small number of well-informed consumers will often make the difference between a profitable product and an unprofitable product (especially in highly comp…

Your assumption that a few well-informed consumers can make the difference between an unprofitable product and a profitable one is only true if sellers cannot significantly increase their profit margins by offering an inferior, but hard to distinguish, product at the same price.

Re: South Korea bans unremovable mobile bloatware

#96
post #12

This unwarranted government intervention is not good though I hate the bloatware. Everytime I visit my parents I end up spending half an hour removing browser toolbars, make your PC fast software. So I bought them a brand new Lenovo laptop just to find that there were 22 different kind of bloatware from DNS related stuff to browser toolbars to some weird webcam and what not software. No matter how much I hate them, t…

> Let the market function well.

I am yet to ever see this. I also do not ever remember being able to choose between the same phone with and without bloatware so I am not sure how the market has ever been able to decide.

Re: South Korea bans unremovable mobile bloatware

#97
post #68
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People seem to think that the free market will automagically drive towards their arbitrary measure of goodness because, in theory, if consumers share that arbitrary measure of goodness they won't buy something that doesn't offer that. But in reality, there is only one truism in free-markets, businesses need to make money and that sometimes runs contrary to whatever issue I personally think the market should optimize…

This is a straw-man; while some may believe all consumers have and require perfect information, not all free-marketers do. If there are many under-informed consumers, these will often select pseudo-randomly, and the few well-informed consumers will select well. The small number of well-informed consumers will often make the difference between a profitable product and an unprofitable product (especially in highly comp…

Were you responding to my post? It seems non-sequitur. Since you seem lost on this point, how about I provide a notional example?

Suppose you have a very strong personal belief, it doesn't matter what it is, but let's say for purpose of argument that your belief is that no car should be sold without Rattan Cooling Seat Covers. You point to all kinds of studies about how it improves circulation and prevents hemorrhoids and is more comfortable and all that. Because it's a health issue you take it up as a moral obligation that these be sold with every car. One car manufacture even goes so far as to sell some of their models with this cover and you point to this one as an example of what should be done.

This is your "arbitrary measure of goodness".

If you were also a free marketer you'd argue "there shouldn't be a regulation to force car manufacturers to put Rattan Cooling Seat Covers, the market should drive towards it". But what the free market knows, even with imperfect information, is that putting $100 of Rattan Cooling seat covers in every car doesn't make them money. In fact, the one maker that puts them in their cars are only marginally popular so it doesn't seem to be driving sales and if every car maker put them in, it wouldn't be a market differentiator anymore anyway! The market knows, even imperfectly, that there is no demand for such a thing in their products, and the after market serves the small percentage that really want it.

But you argue, "this is a moral imperative! Circulation!" You post on message boards about the benefits of Rattan Cooling seat covers, you raise money and take out advertisements, you do everything to build market demand short of going to your local congressperson/parliamentarian because you don't believe this should be regulated and the market will simply correct for your arbitrary measure of goodness...even if the market isn't interested.

Suppose you're successful, now every car is $250 more expensive (you can't possibly believe they'd throw in $100 of Rattan Cooling seat covers, available at any after market stores, at cost do you?). Congratulations, arbitrary measure of goodness is met, cars are more expensive. But as a result fewer cars are purchased. Do car makers make more money? Does the free market win? After all, they're making $150 on each set of seat covers! They should be! You're a hero, asses are saved and car makers make more money, win-win!

But we don't actually know the outcome. Cars are more expensive, fewer people buy them as a result. Or the used market grows as people can buy cars without Rattan Cooling seat covers without the extra "ass-tax" as it's come to be called on internet car enthusiast forums. It could turn out to be a wash, who knows? The market has imperfect information and can't predict the outcome.

But it's more likely that you'll fail because the market, because of imperfect information, isn't interested because there's no guarantee that they'll make more money selling cars with the seat covers, and lots of potential they'll lose money doing so. One company interprets this imperfect information as still sells their cars with the seat covers, but the rest interpret it more conservatively and seek other money making opportunities instead.

Just because it was your arbitrary measure of goodness, doesn't mean the market will follow it.

Just like in this case, just because a bunch of nerds on tech forums don't like carrier crapware installed on phones, doesn't mean the market has any reason to correct for it. Even in the presence of a competitor that doesn't install the software on their phones, the market still chooses the crapware infested phone at rates exceeding the alternative. The market has actually already chosen crapware infested phones at something like 88% of the global smartphone market. And companies, using this signalling, and the bigger signalling of the revenue that comes with allowing carriers to install garbage on their phones, have listened to this imperfect information and sell phones with this "feature". The market optimizes to make money, not solve our arbitrary measures of goodness.

The alternative is for us tech forum nerds to try and raise awareness about why this is vaguely bad for consumers (it's usually mildly annoying at worst to the vast vast majority of consumers and likely has almost no measurably impact on their purchasing decision), and convince the market to drive towards phones that don't have this problem. But it's an uphill battle.

The result of this legislation has three possible outcomes.

1) Phones will cost more. The revenue that went to Samsung for whoring out their phones to various carriers will simply be passed along to consumers.

2) Phones will be made more cheaply so prices can remain at parity. Features will be dropped, or upgrades won't happen till technology advances a bit more and BOMs can fit within some profitability model.

3) Phone makers will feel a great wave of sympathy for their consumers and the small minority who has an arbitrary measure of goodness for "don't install garbage on my phone I can't remove" and continue on as-is, eating into their margins and making less money.

I can tell you that I'm not betting on #3.

Re: South Korea bans unremovable mobile bloatware

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think that antitrust laws are wrong?

You shouldn't assume that I think regulations are bad from what I wrote; I didn't say it was my position.

I didn't assume it, that's why I asked. Anyway, what exactly was the error in my argument above? All I said was that the common reasoning "regulation in model market is wrong, therefore regulation in real market is wrong" is flawed. Perhaps there are other reasons why regulated markets are always under any circumstances wrong. If so, I'll be happy to discuss them, although I'm convinced they're flawed too (lot of anecdotal evidence).

Re: South Korea bans unremovable mobile bloatware

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, many of the conclusions are wrong, because the assumptions are wrong.

As usual arguments against free market ideologies are based on misunderstanding. They don't assume an idealized market model and don't derive conclusions from it. I don't see why I should elaborate when you're happy with simple contradictions and patronizing comments like "you fell for a simple trick".

Well, I can't defend against your statement, you say I'm wrong, but don't say why exactly.

> free market ideologies

The name "ideology" suggest that the whole theory is built on top of some assumptions or dogmas. What are they?

Re: South Korea bans unremovable mobile bloatware

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's possible (I have a very vague knowledge of the antitrust laws in the US). But a good antitrust law is better than no antitrust law. Do you think that a secret price-setting agreement between AT&T, Verizon and Sprint should be legal? It would be profitable to these companies. In a model, competetive market, this wouldn't work, because a competitor would immediately appear on stage and started offering equivalen…

Have you considered that the US mobile market may be less competitive because of other regulations? Who assigns spectrum and shuts down unlicensed providers?

Yes, that's certainly possible. My position is that zero regulation is often not the optimal amount of regulation.
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