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Revolution in Kiev

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Re: Revolution in Kiev

#331

Post by bluekeybox »

znowi wrote: post #162

Ukraine has been historically divided into pro-West Ukraine in the west and pro-Russia Ukraine in the east. I think the only peaceful resolution to this conflict is having two independent states.

Actually there is (or at least use to be) an idea of "progress". The hope was that people in the predominantly Russian-speaking Eastern regions would eventually "convert" politically to a pro-European direction because a primary driver of the pro-Russian leanings (other than cultural factors) was a positive memory of industrialization by the USSR which brought them jobs and a better way of life. The idea was that the older generation who remembered the glory of the USSR would eventually become replaced with a less Russia-centric one. Unfortunately this hasn't exactly played out to the extent it was hoped for.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#332

Post by bluekeybox »

tiatia wrote: post #174

There are two forces clashing. US supported groups (That basically want Ukraine to be part of the EU) and Pro Russian groups (supported by good ol' Putin). Let's hope it all ends well. This is the Bozo who thought it all up: http://www.amazon.com/The-Grand-Chessboard-Geostrategic-Impe...

It's an (somewhat distorted) oversimplification to call this a Cold-War style chess game. Both groups are authentic, i.e. people in Western Ukraine genuinely feel closer to the West while people in Eastern Ukraine genuinely do feel closer to Russia. The US influence is nearly non-existent (if you discount Hollywood movies of course) while Russia exerts very significant influence by placing economic pressure (such as banning imports from "misbehaving" countries that were formerly a part of the USSR), providing PR expertise to Russian-supporting political parties, and so on.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#333

Post by varjag »

thesz wrote: post #196
emilis_info wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I come from one of your "former Baltic USSR republics" (actually a country with a long history before being occupied by soviet Russia). I saw the changes from gaining freedom from Russian occupation and joining the EU with my own eyes. We gained so much from EU, I don't know were to start. Financially: we got a lot of our infrastructure built with EU funds (roads, etc.), if you see anything modernized even in the rem…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia#Ethnic_groups is closest to the demographic graph of Latvia, for example. It stopped to grow right after Russian occupation ended. Take a closer look to the conditions in which most people live from where you have come. Or at their prospects in life. Or prospects of economy. I think that will change your opinion slightly.

Russian population also stopped growing after USSR collapsed.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#334

Post by solomatov »

gritzko wrote: post #251
radicalbyte wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a number of Belorussians, and they all want to move to the EU. They also regularly drive to Poland for shopping, because it's cheaper and more things are available there :)

Hell yes! Folks from Saint Petersburg shop in Finland. They even order parcels to Finnish addresses next to the border because Russian mail sucks badly. Once I was crossing from Finland to SPb and I was questioned by customs on whether I've bought my stuff in Finland. Apparently, everybody's doing that and they are trying to tax it. Goods are unreasonably expensive in Russia. I was living in Netherlands which is not…

They buy stuff from Finland not because it's cheaper but because they can return VAT when they cross the border.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#335

Post by bluekeybox »

random123455 wrote: post #252

I would like to point to another perspective on what is happening. Like most, i hope, i try to make my views fit to the events that have/are happening rather than them being defined by my views. It seems that the protestors have no other clear goal in mind except joining the EU, this is very hard for a country like Ukraine where many people daily cross the border on their way to work, what happens to them does not co…

> It seems that the protestors have no other clear goal in mind except joining the EU

Incorrect, the main goal is to prevent the current government mafia allied with government-connected industrial oligarchs in Donetsk region to become even less representative and even more Russian-controlled.

> I wonder if there are Russians living in the west part of Ukraine, how violently would the protestors deal with them.

So far the protests were targeting the government, not civilians. This is a very good thing.

> Because it seems that the protestors are driven by their hatred towards not-signing the deal with Russia instead of EU

Again, incorrect, the protests are driven by resentment against the current tightly-connected pro-Russian ruling elite.

> nazi supporters.

There is indeed a party with extremely right-wing views that regularly receives up to 8-10% of the vote. However it is questionable as to whether that portion of the population actually holds those beliefs or simply uses them as signaling to antagonize Russia.

> And the EU/USA always support the more radical parts of the society(with media, weapon support etc..)

Current Western support is nearly non-existent while that of Moscow is extremely significant and some would say heavy-weight.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#336

Post by yazmeya »

f_salmon wrote: post #100

How well are these events being reported in the media (US), in your view?

Very poorly. There's virtually nothing on the majors' home pages (e.g., only WSJ has it above the fold now), and blogs latch on to fiery pictures only. Much better coverage @ Reuters and BBC.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#337

Post by kolev »

I am sorry, but this isn't a revolution! The protesters are a minority. Democracy works differently - at least there are free elections in Ukraine! Joining the EU or not should be decided by a referendum, not by a few criminals destroying the the city and turning it into a shithole! I only wonder why Europe is excited to welcome barbarians and neo-nazis who beat up and set police officers on fire! Well, it's easy to play a man when you know the police officers are ordered not to carry guns and not to respond to provocations! Also, a lot of people don't know that George Soros is fueling this along with the US - they don't even shy away of hiding this fact! The video with the arrested naked guy that has circulated also hides an important detail - the guy poured flammable liquid on himself and wanted to set himself on fire, yet, the journos are saving these details and only let you see what works best for them! I am really disgusted by seeing this shortly after Syria, where the US is, again and again, on the wrong side! Why didn't the US condemned Turkey's actions against the protesters there? Well, Turkey is an ally! Why isn't US condemning the way gay people are treated in Saudi Arabia? Well, Saudi Arabia is an ally! Yeah, make a boxer a president, and good luck, Ukraine! Or good luck joining the sinking ship of the EU! When Euroscepticism is becoming more stronger of a movement by every day passing and some are considering leaving the EU, others want to join! Again, good luck!

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#338

Post by Noxchi »

snitko wrote: post #274
nhaehnle wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarchism very explicitly calls for a power vacuum to be created. That's actually what the word means . Now, I can easily believe that a majority of people wouldn't want to be ruled by anyone, but what do you do about the minority who want to rule over the rest? Society needs a response against this minority, and this response needs to be organized somehow. Somebody will be in a role of organizing the defense of soci…

> It is more a reminder that those who most seek to overthrow what they perceive to be the current oppressors are the most likely to end up being the future oppressors Precisely. This is why I'm no fan of revolutions. > Society needs a response against this minority, and this response needs to be organized somehow If I hire a protection/defense agency to guard against those who wish to rule me, this agency only has a…

First of all, you need to explain what your "Defense agency" does.

Actual defense is almost impossible if you want any mobility. Even US presidents get shot by determined citizens.

If someone is willing to give their life to kill someone else, it can be done.

With current technology, real defense is absurdly expense and still not effective.

So the way society currently works is on a system of retribution. You basically have a big paddle, and you whack people who get out of societal norms. You rely on people's (usually) occurring desire to not hurt themselves without enough reward to maintain a reasonable level of order.

So your "Defense agency", are you basically paying them to avenge you in case someone does you wrong? This has actually existed for thousands of years, it is known as "blood feuds" (except your family members do the avenging instead of a hired party).

What it leads to is different families killing one another for generations, some have lasted for multiple hundreds of years.

OK, but now in your system, it isn't families killing eachother but hired guns. Lets say now instead of 1 big paddle (the gubment), you now have 5 smaller paddles.

Human nature will have it that each of the owners of those paddles will threaten some people (usually where he lives) to give him money or else he will whack you. Now you don't freedom of choice. If you think you can funnel some more money to a different paddle to save you, that may work... until now that paddle is the biggest of the bunch and he controls your area as well. Human nature will... (look into what warlords are, read some history on the 1000-1500 years in Europe, Central Asia, Asia)

Listen buddy, humanity started with anarchism. What we have now for government is at least close to the best that we ever had before. If other forms of human cooperation were better, then they would have survived.

Human cooperation is a survival of the fittest, and currently in the world, people strive for western ideals. That means democracy, capitalism with a bit of socialism, is the best we have (and have had) so far.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#339

Post by IgorPartola »

versale wrote: post #330
IgorPartola wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for clarifying. I understand people in his core regions and pro Russia Russians supporting him. I cannot understand the fairly progressive and very intelligent community here on HN supporting this wanna-be dictator.

If you understand the Ukrainian Russians could you please clarify why they support the dictator? Are they not intelligent enough?

No not at all. IMO that has nothing to do with intelligence/education. The issue is twofold. First, most voters in Ukraine have known the USSR and it does skew their views. The "good old times" seem too good to let go. The propaganda machine was strong back then and the idea that Russia could lead the entire region into its former glory does have some appeal.

Second, the people with ties to both Russia and Ukraine might actually believe that Ukraine is just a part of Russia and that its independence is a temporary thing. The two countries have a very long history that is full of intertwined interests, population mixing, etc. Remember that Kiev was a prospering city from where the ruling class moved to a tiny fortress up north called Moscow.

I do not buy "Ukraine is a Russian territory" mostly based on the treatment that the Ukrainian nationals in the USSR received: artificial feminine, oppression, active suppression of Ukrainian culture and language, etc. The biggest hurdle here IMO is that Ukraine has not been independent for very much of its existence and has only known democracy in the last 23 years. The people have no sense of how a democracy is supposed to look, feel, and work. I think that once people who lived in the USSR are replaced with the generations to follow things might improve slightly. For now this is all really a struggle to find the Ukrainian identity. To put this into perspective think of the US in 1800. Not exactly a stable or peaceful time, is it?

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#340

Post by arg01 »

snitko wrote: post #274
nhaehnle wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarchism very explicitly calls for a power vacuum to be created. That's actually what the word means . Now, I can easily believe that a majority of people wouldn't want to be ruled by anyone, but what do you do about the minority who want to rule over the rest? Society needs a response against this minority, and this response needs to be organized somehow. Somebody will be in a role of organizing the defense of soci…

> It is more a reminder that those who most seek to overthrow what they perceive to be the current oppressors are the most likely to end up being the future oppressors Precisely. This is why I'm no fan of revolutions. > Society needs a response against this minority, and this response needs to be organized somehow If I hire a protection/defense agency to guard against those who wish to rule me, this agency only has a…

"and trust me, there will be plenty willing to have my money and do a better job"

See this is the bit I don't understand, my understanding of market forces is that those that do the job better will grow if they are in anyway scalable. Now your in a position were small protection rings are unable to work against there large competitors. Similar to how you say you can't compete against government in the supply of defense of sovereignty these small firms can't compete against the large firms in defense of law.

So now you have a system were you have these large protection firms consolidating absorbing any small upstarts and focusing on specific territories (to become more efficient).

Soon you've carved up the protection by geographic region and these companies have carte blanche in their own regions with a few places having oligopolies. Now these groups were obviously very friendly during this time and obviously never abused their position because the market is good at incorporating moral values into the cost of what they buy... but you would have to admit that as they are now acting as the sole provider in a specific location then it makes sense for them to extort that region at an amount that is lower than the cost of leaving for those extorted.

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