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Revolution in Kiev

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Re: Revolution in Kiev

#241

Post by nikolak »

Mithaldu wrote: post #238
nikolak wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that definitely justifies setting someone on fire. The protesters are just this peaceful bunch of people who would never do something like that, hurt other people who are just standing there... /s http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=959_1390672028 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuO53xeZkm8

These police are just standing there, shielding people who previously happily allowed the police to brutalize peacefully protesting civilians and even tried to poison political enemies. So no, they are not simply standing there. Further, the protesters in the liveleak video only hit police armed with riot gear and once they're rid of that largely leave them alone. That is astonishing control.

By that logic, would you agree that police should use any force necessary(beatings, etc) to cut through peaceful demonstrators and arrest those who are not peaceful, throwing Molotov's and such, because after all these peaceful protesters are just protecting those who aren't?

Further, the police in the video only hit protesters and then leave them alone. That is astonishing control.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#242

Post by us0r »

nikolak wrote: post #234
us0r wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvlFhr-TPZw Keep throwing that molotov!

Yeah, that definitely justifies setting someone on fire. The protesters are just this peaceful bunch of people who would never do something like that, hurt other people who are just standing there... /s http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=959_1390672028 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuO53xeZkm8

The protesters absolutely have been a peaceful bunch. You when they turned violent? After the first video I posted. Had that never happened there would probably be no one on the street right now and he can continue raping the country as usual. After that day or two it goes back to being peaceful and a few weeks later he tried it again. Every single time this thing kind of starts fading out he goes in and fails at violently clearing it up then 2x the people join in.

Are there radicals? Sure. They are limited in number and are definitely not the majority or "uncontrollable" as the Russian media reports it.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#244

Post by tinco »

us0r wrote: post #235
us0r wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvlFhr-TPZw Keep throwing that molotov!

How about this attack on journalists (then complain they are one sided): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBWqawm81Fo We definitely don't want doctors in there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFPlJs1GzBs Hopefully this guy is the one who lost his eye: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOv0AktufCQ When you do stuff like this, you kind of get what is coming to you.

Why do you hope that guy loses an eye? That's rather harsh, he's just taunting a little bit. You know the guys on the other side are having a hard time too right?

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#245

Post by ajuc »

snitko wrote: post #240
scribu wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only true worthwhile revolution comes when people realize they don't need anyone to rule them. When the majority realizes that, no more revolutions and violence can follow. Indeed, in an anarchy, you don't have any regime to stage revolutions against. But violence? Oh, you'd get plenty of that. It would just be distributed, instead of organized: survival of the fittest.

States did a great job convincing people that anarchy == violence. Yet what is the evidence for that? If you look at history, an average state over the course of, say, 10 years, murdered more people than the bloodiest of all anarchists did over his lifetime. And then you should also understand that anarchy doesn't mean no laws and policing. It means that people choose to live by the laws they want (and not by voting,…

My law firm (also a protection service) has simple rules - in all conflicts with clients of other law firms our clients are right by default. We have the best security enforcers, so we can deliver on that rule, too.

We may be expansive, but having your home burned cause you signed with inferior security provider is far more expansive, right?

How exactly this situation differs from payign mafia for protection? At least with state there's just one mafia to pay off, and you can vote for the godfather every few years.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#246

Post by us0r »

tinco wrote: post #244
us0r wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about this attack on journalists (then complain they are one sided): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBWqawm81Fo We definitely don't want doctors in there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFPlJs1GzBs Hopefully this guy is the one who lost his eye: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOv0AktufCQ When you do stuff like this, you kind of get what is coming to you.

Why do you hope that guy loses an eye? That's rather harsh, he's just taunting a little bit. You know the guys on the other side are having a hard time too right?

There is a time and place for everything and he clearly seems to be enjoying himself. I would not be surprised if half of these guys didn’t want to be there and wanted to join the people. So given the fact that he is clearly having a good time during all of this – yes I hope it is him vs. someone who is just there cause it’s their job.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#247

Post by JanezStupar »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #221
dmytrish wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that Yanukovych is the president of _my_ country.

I didn't mean to poke at your country, but at the other one.

And he meant to say that the other country looks like heaven from his perspective.

People you call poor and downtrodden are pretty well of by Eastern European standards.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#248

Post by JanezStupar »

dmytrish wrote: post #166
audriusko wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please elaborate on this: "conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics". I am from a former Baltic USSR republic and I have no idea how you came up with your, as you might say, stupid conclusion. It is just plain not true.

thesz is from Moscow, it's how it looks from there.

Wonders of propaganda.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#249

Post by nhaehnle »

snitko wrote: post #240
scribu wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only true worthwhile revolution comes when people realize they don't need anyone to rule them. When the majority realizes that, no more revolutions and violence can follow. Indeed, in an anarchy, you don't have any regime to stage revolutions against. But violence? Oh, you'd get plenty of that. It would just be distributed, instead of organized: survival of the fittest.

States did a great job convincing people that anarchy == violence. Yet what is the evidence for that? If you look at history, an average state over the course of, say, 10 years, murdered more people than the bloodiest of all anarchists did over his lifetime. And then you should also understand that anarchy doesn't mean no laws and policing. It means that people choose to live by the laws they want (and not by voting,…

What you call anarchism is really a very specific subcategory called anarcho-capitalism.

In any case, it is similarly naive as other strands of anarchism. Power vacuums will inevitably be filled. The question is: What do you want them to be filled with.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#250

Post by us0r »

jccooper wrote: post #137
hooande wrote: post #94

This is an amazingly low tech revolution. The primary weapons of the protestors are: smoke, flammable liquid, rocks, shields and giant slingshots. These tools could have been used in the Peloponeasian War as easily as in 2014. It really says something about the character of the revolutionaries that they are willing to fight without modern weapons or equipment. I don't know enough about the Urkaine to asses the merit…

"The courage these activists are showing is going to do a lot to help accomplish their political goals." What are their political goals? The author of this piece seems to say that there are none, other than being generally angry. Even if you know what you're fighting for, it's hard to accomplish; if you don't know what you want, it's rather unlikely you'll get it.

This is probably the best write up on it:

http://www.businessinsider.com/understanding-euromaidan-2014...

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