Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Revolution in Kiev

zyalt.livejournal.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 377 posts

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#141

Post by memracom »

smsm42 wrote: post #134
memracom wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could even have been bankrolled from Russia. Even though I speak Russian and some Ukrainian, and I have followed current events in both countries for years, I can't figure out what is actually going on here. Yes, it could be another dumb move by the Americans who have a real habit of foot in mouth internationally, but it could just as well be part of a clever complex multi-year gambit by the Russians who have a st…

Yeah right, that's John Kerry (under orders from Barack Obama) who is orchestrating Ukrainian revolution. That's one of the funniest theories about that whole mess I ever read. >>> but it could just as well be part of a clever complex multi-year gambit by the Russians who have a strong tradition of playing chess You realize that not all Russian are the same, not all of them drink vodka, are chess grandmasters, wear u…

I have been to Russia more than once. And I speak Russian well enough to travel there on my own, with no support from any travel agencies or guides. On one occasion a couple of guys wanted to steal my suitcase, because I foolishly left the airline stickers on it so they knew it had to contain something worth stealing. But they didn't grab it. They didn't pull out a weapon. Instead they smiled and laughed and try to talk me into going with them to some place nearby. It was like a game of cat and mouse. Or chess. I have heard of other people who ran into similar thieves. Rather than using force they try to outwit you. If you don't fall for their tricks, then you are free. That is how chess works. So I think that the multilevel strategic and tactical thinking of chess is more widespread in Russian society than you claim.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#142

Post by stdbrouw »

csomar wrote: post #50
arrrg wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joining the common European market would be a great step towards prosperity, sure, with mutual benefits for everyone, as well as increased security, stability and peace. Having a large common market you can buy from and sell to is pretty awesome, actually. Add the pretty great more human benefits (freedom of movement, freedom of labor) and it’s a pretty great perspective. As it stands, however, the Ukraine is probabl…

Joining the common European market would be a great step towards prosperity, sure, with mutual benefits for everyone, as well as increased security, stability and peace. Big claims need big justifications, I guess. The EU experience wasn't all that good for Greece, for example.

Well, Greece kind of shot themselves in the foot didn't they?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis... http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/07/greece-a...

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#143

Post by audriusko »

thesz wrote: post #129
IgorPartola wrote: post #117

Man, the amount of disdain people have for protesters in the comments to this story is really shocking. I do not exactly understand where it's coming from. Yanukovych is a corrupt petty thief and rapist, turned politician, who has very close ties with Russia, and is stealing from the Ukrainian people through corruption. He rigged an election in 2004 and only massive riots prevented him from coming into power then by…

Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo…

Please elaborate on this: "conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics". I am from a former Baltic USSR republic and I have no idea how you came up with your, as you might say, stupid conclusion. It is just plain not true.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#145

Post by emilis_info »

thesz wrote: post #129
IgorPartola wrote: post #117

Man, the amount of disdain people have for protesters in the comments to this story is really shocking. I do not exactly understand where it's coming from. Yanukovych is a corrupt petty thief and rapist, turned politician, who has very close ties with Russia, and is stealing from the Ukrainian people through corruption. He rigged an election in 2004 and only massive riots prevented him from coming into power then by…

Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo…

I come from one of your "former Baltic USSR republics" (actually a country with a long history before being occupied by soviet Russia).

I saw the changes from gaining freedom from Russian occupation and joining the EU with my own eyes.

We gained so much from EU, I don't know were to start.

Financially: we got a lot of our infrastructure built with EU funds (roads, etc.), if you see anything modernized even in the remote places of my country, you usually see a EU sign next to it.

Legally: there are always discussions about EU legislation, but a lot of it makes our lives better. Most recent example: smoked meat products will be allowed to be produced only with smoke, not chemicals.

Culturally: I used to be living in a land of grumpy cats interested only in themselves. To some extent it still is that way (see http://imgur.com/z5rYv). However the open borders policy has a big ongoing effect: most of the people have seen (or seen the effects on their friends) how people behave and communicate in the Western Europe. Majority of people have got more friendly, polite and positive about the future.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#146

Post by claudius »

csomar wrote: post #50
arrrg wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joining the common European market would be a great step towards prosperity, sure, with mutual benefits for everyone, as well as increased security, stability and peace. Having a large common market you can buy from and sell to is pretty awesome, actually. Add the pretty great more human benefits (freedom of movement, freedom of labor) and it’s a pretty great perspective. As it stands, however, the Ukraine is probabl…

Joining the common European market would be a great step towards prosperity, sure, with mutual benefits for everyone, as well as increased security, stability and peace. Big claims need big justifications, I guess. The EU experience wasn't all that good for Greece, for example.

> The EU experience wasn't all that good for Greece, for example.

Greece got itself into a bloody mess by overspending, and while low interest rates due to Eurozone membership may have made that easier, it is in no way the fault of the EU that the Greek people elected an inept government. OTOH, EU membership now helps them get out of this mess with billions and billions of euros.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#147

Post by shoniko »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #64

The reality distortion field the protesters have formed is impressive. They've completely overshadowed a few key points: - The Yanukovych government offered a power-sharing agreement with the opposition, offering Yatsenyuk the PM position and Klitschko the deputy PM job, which the opposition rejected: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-oppositions-rejects-vik... - The fascist element - one of the opposition leaders…

Mike, this "second view" of yours is oh so close to propaganda of Russian TV. Calling everyone a fascist and hiding the inconvinient facts. There is no second view within humam rights framework.

- Yanukovych's power-sharing offer is a sham. It is not true power sharing until he is a president - he controls everything.

- Just looks at the definintion of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism. Yes, there is a nationalistic element in Svoboda party. It isn't pretty itself as well, but it is far, far, far from fascism. Nobody besides Yanukovych is authoritarian here.

- protesters were beaten up for 2 months, but didn't fight back. Only when Yanukovych decided to forbid peaceful protest in general the aggression from protesters started. I don't think police should be just standing under Molotov cocktails, but their reaction SHOULD NOT be shooting from a sniper riffles, killing 5 people, violently beating up protesters, kidnapping protesters from hospitals (!) beeting them up again (!) and taking them far into the fields and leaving there to die on -10°C (14°F) (!).

- Yanukovych has indeed been elected through democratical elections. That is true. And what has he done since then? Jailed his main opponent Yulia Tymoshenko. Changed the constitution to have full power in his hands. There is not a chance now that the next election under him will be fair. And you can state whatever you want but Party of Regions did loos a lot of electorate now. It is not half of coutry now at all, as you've stated.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#149

Post by JumpCrisscross »

jccooper wrote: post #137
hooande wrote: post #94

This is an amazingly low tech revolution. The primary weapons of the protestors are: smoke, flammable liquid, rocks, shields and giant slingshots. These tools could have been used in the Peloponeasian War as easily as in 2014. It really says something about the character of the revolutionaries that they are willing to fight without modern weapons or equipment. I don't know enough about the Urkaine to asses the merit…

"The courage these activists are showing is going to do a lot to help accomplish their political goals." What are their political goals? The author of this piece seems to say that there are none, other than being generally angry. Even if you know what you're fighting for, it's hard to accomplish; if you don't know what you want, it's rather unlikely you'll get it.

Forcing snap elections by encouraging defection from Team Yanukovych by the elite, i.e. bureaucrats, the military, and the oligarchs.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#150

Post by dodyg »

abrahamsen wrote: post #28
desireco42 wrote: post #14

Stunning photography. What I see here is large scale destruction of presumably their city by it's citizens. I don't see how anything good can come out of mass hysteria and destruction. Edit... I don't believe for a moment and based on numerous other reports in the media, that assertions about peacefulness of this protest are true or represent anything but something that poster would like to be. Doesn't sound likely a…

Tire burning is not really large scale destruction. From the livejournal entry: 1."They destroyed the whole city" Not true. All of the action you see in the pictures are happening on a small square near the entrance to a Dinamo stadium. This is a government sector, there is no intereference in peaceful life outside of this area. If you make an analogy with Moscow, imagine that the barricades are someone in the area o…

True this. I live in Cairo at this moment. It's similar here.

I visited Kiev three years ago. It is a beautiful city.

Post reply on HN