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Revolution in Kiev

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Re: Revolution in Kiev

#111

Post by emilis_info »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #64

The reality distortion field the protesters have formed is impressive. They've completely overshadowed a few key points: - The Yanukovych government offered a power-sharing agreement with the opposition, offering Yatsenyuk the PM position and Klitschko the deputy PM job, which the opposition rejected: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-oppositions-rejects-vik... - The fascist element - one of the opposition leaders…

If you want a balanced view turn to Wikipedia, not some kremlin supported (pun intended, see below) propaganda:

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

The peaceful Euromaidan protesters were attacked and beaten by police force on November 30. Even after this the protests were peaceful up until January 19, when the president signed laws that severely limit freedom of expression and gathering. Dissatisfied people went to Hrushevskoho and met police forces there. The opposition lost control of the events from that point. See:

- http://imgur.com/gallery/frnKiFS - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hrushevskoho_Street_riots

During the first days of fights journalists were clearly and openly targeted by government militia forces (~40 of them suffered injuries, arrested, etc.)

Considering fascist bullshit: yes there are some radicals in the crowd. It is very easy to point a finger at some guy and shout: "look a neonazi". The truth is that the crowds are a very diverse group of people. Go read this:

- http://maidantranslations.wordpress.com/2014/01/19/maidan-po...

If anyone is a fascist, it is the current government with their choice of tactics:

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0zD3pOG-Tk

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#112

Post by Mikeb85 »

smsm42 wrote: post #110
Mikeb85 wrote: post #64

The reality distortion field the protesters have formed is impressive. They've completely overshadowed a few key points: - The Yanukovych government offered a power-sharing agreement with the opposition, offering Yatsenyuk the PM position and Klitschko the deputy PM job, which the opposition rejected: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-oppositions-rejects-vik... - The fascist element - one of the opposition leaders…

It doesn't matter if he was democratically elected as soon as he lost the consent of the governed. That's the difference between elections and revolutions - for the first, regular election process is enough, the second takes place when citizens lost their trust in the ability of power structures to support that process. And this loss happened in part because Yanukovich consistently escalated the situation - first by…

> Who would win the next elections is the question for the citizens of Ukraine, which they will decide once Yanukovich is gone.

The problem is that whoever leads the Party of Regions would likely win the next election, which is why these protests are happening. The opposition knows they can't win.

http://www.uceps.org/eng/poll.php?poll_id=115

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#113

Post by gritzko »

hooande wrote: post #94

This is an amazingly low tech revolution. The primary weapons of the protestors are: smoke, flammable liquid, rocks, shields and giant slingshots. These tools could have been used in the Peloponeasian War as easily as in 2014. It really says something about the character of the revolutionaries that they are willing to fight without modern weapons or equipment. I don't know enough about the Urkaine to asses the merit…

Well, guys constructed a trebuchet, which is in the X-XV century range. Then, Berkut made a counter-attack to destroy it. So, it really worked.

Otherwise, it is a war of the nerves mostly.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#114

Post by smsm42 »

IgorPartola wrote: post #103
hooande wrote: post #94

This is an amazingly low tech revolution. The primary weapons of the protestors are: smoke, flammable liquid, rocks, shields and giant slingshots. These tools could have been used in the Peloponeasian War as easily as in 2014. It really says something about the character of the revolutionaries that they are willing to fight without modern weapons or equipment. I don't know enough about the Urkaine to asses the merit…

Gun ownership I Ukraine is pretty restrictive: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/ukraine . Given these events it is probably a good thing otherwise a lot more people would be dead now.

You are aware of the fact that strict gun laws don't mean no guns? Your own link shows there are 3 million guns in Ukraine. If there's a need, some of them - probably hundreds of them - would find their way to the hostilities. But I'm not sure there is the will to escalate the situation this far. Because then the next step is using the army and heavy weaponry, and that means civil war and massive casualties. No one really wants that to happen.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#115

Post by gritzko »

chmike wrote: post #107
IgorPartola wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gun ownership I Ukraine is pretty restrictive: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/ukraine . Given these events it is probably a good thing otherwise a lot more people would be dead now.

Yes but what can we expect from Putin who is obviously behind the political decision to turn their back to europe ?

Putin is temporarily hobbled by the Olympiad (potential boycott and everything).

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#116

Post by smsm42 »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #112
smsm42 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter if he was democratically elected as soon as he lost the consent of the governed. That's the difference between elections and revolutions - for the first, regular election process is enough, the second takes place when citizens lost their trust in the ability of power structures to support that process. And this loss happened in part because Yanukovich consistently escalated the situation - first by…

> Who would win the next elections is the question for the citizens of Ukraine, which they will decide once Yanukovich is gone. The problem is that whoever leads the Party of Regions would likely win the next election, which is why these protests are happening. The opposition knows they can't win. http://www.uceps.org/eng/poll.php?poll_id=115

The link you showed shows the polls pre-hostilities, up to October 2013. These data are useless now - once it started, everything changed. Also, even there PoR has 20% of the votes. Not exactly the winning position.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#117

Post by IgorPartola »

Man, the amount of disdain people have for protesters in the comments to this story is really shocking. I do not exactly understand where it's coming from. Yanukovych is a corrupt petty thief and rapist, turned politician, who has very close ties with Russia, and is stealing from the Ukrainian people through corruption. He rigged an election in 2004 and only massive riots prevented him from coming into power then by forcing a new vote. In any civilized country any of these individual issues would have prevented him from being eligible to be president.

The basic political problem in Ukraine is that Russia still has lots of influence over it, and Russia sees it as its territory separated temporarily after the breakup of the USSR. Ukraine is dependent on Russia for things like natural gas, and thus cannot simply break away from the abusive relationship. Russia naturally has an interest in having a political puppet in power in Ukraine. Who better to do this than a convicted felon like Yanukovych? This is how the riots started this time around: to protest the sudden pro-Russian turn of the Yanukovych administration.

Ukraine has for some time now faced the tough choice: continue its abusive but familiar relationship with Russia or turn to Europe and risk everything to try to build a new relationship with the EU? IMO, until Ukraine grows a spine and does what's best for its people long term, it will continue getting into situations like this. Yanukovych, while completely corrupt, is not the ultimate evil. He is a lackey that will be replaced if he is ousted. The real issue here is Russia.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#118

Post by Mikeb85 »

prostoalex wrote: post #54
news_to_me wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a bit uninformed; is there any recent precedent for a revolt like this succeeding? Honestly I'm a little skeptical that a revolution of this sort could ultimately defeat a vastly better-funded power without overwhelming popular support.

Ukraine in 2004 worked out, albeit short-term. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution

Yes, Yanukovych won the next elections when there was less western interference...

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#119

Post by fauigerzigerk »

rosser wrote: post #4

I feel like this kind of thing (the various Arab Spring uprisings, the Ukrainian revolution, &c ) is very well served by the cacophony of amateur/citizen journalism that flows out of an individual event. Sure, at the time, it's incredibly noisy, because there's so much primary source material being created, with such incredible depth and nuance. Once people start to be able to assemble a comprehensive understanding o…

There are certainly great pictures, but depth and nuance? You can't see people's ideology and in their faces. Pretty girls can still be crazy nationalists and fascists. Does age and gender really prove anything as the author seems to suggest?

He also says that the crowd is well organized. Who organizes them if they are so diverse? Who are the people who deny others access to some areas as he reports? There are very few answers in his report.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#120

Post by Mikeb85 »

higherpurpose wrote: post #24
sillysaurus2 wrote: post #7

A protester in Kiev did an IAmA on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1w17qn/iama_protestor_... According to him, "Russia is trying to keep all the former Soviet Union satellite countries under control, and that is the root cause of the rioting."

They've already lost Moldavia recently, and didn't they lose Georgia, too? I don't think they can keep them under control much longer.

> They've already lost Moldavia recently, and didn't they lose Georgia, too?

The Rose Revolution gang were ousted in the most recent elections in Georgia...

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