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Revolution in Kiev

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Re: Revolution in Kiev

#71

Post by bluekeybox »

mladenkovacevic wrote: post #26
yetanotherphd wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

who do you think is being manipulated? Statements like that are useless without some elaboration.

The protesters are manipulated into thinking that joining EU and getting rid of Yanukovich is somehow the first step to prosperity... And the blogosphere is manipulated into buying this as some kind of completely spontaneous grass roots movement. Sure people want change.. But this is bankrolled elsewhere.. I bet it wasn't that expensive either.

> And the blogosphere is manipulated into buying this as some kind of completely spontaneous grass roots movement

Completely absurd. All my extended family in Ukraine (plus all my former friends, classmates, and teachers) support the protests. Some were involved in parties such as Klitschko's Udar and Tymoshenko's Batkivshchyna. Please keep listening to Radio Moscow.

The protests are not about prosperity or even about joining the EU. They are about preventing Russian-controlled mafia from running the country.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#72

Post by cdash »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #64

The reality distortion field the protesters have formed is impressive. They've completely overshadowed a few key points: - The Yanukovych government offered a power-sharing agreement with the opposition, offering Yatsenyuk the PM position and Klitschko the deputy PM job, which the opposition rejected: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-oppositions-rejects-vik... - The fascist element - one of the opposition leaders…

So the protesters have been more violent? Then why are there more of them dead than there are police and why are there more of them injured than police?

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#73

Post by Mikeb85 »

cdash wrote: post #72
Mikeb85 wrote: post #64

The reality distortion field the protesters have formed is impressive. They've completely overshadowed a few key points: - The Yanukovych government offered a power-sharing agreement with the opposition, offering Yatsenyuk the PM position and Klitschko the deputy PM job, which the opposition rejected: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-oppositions-rejects-vik... - The fascist element - one of the opposition leaders…

So the protesters have been more violent? Then why are there more of them dead than there are police and why are there more of them injured than police?

If you followed the news and read both sides, you'd see that there are dead policemen, and hundreds that are injured. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-prote...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLuvsXLQHBM

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#74

Post by kremlin »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #64

The reality distortion field the protesters have formed is impressive. They've completely overshadowed a few key points: - The Yanukovych government offered a power-sharing agreement with the opposition, offering Yatsenyuk the PM position and Klitschko the deputy PM job, which the opposition rejected: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-oppositions-rejects-vik... - The fascist element - one of the opposition leaders…

I appreciate this alternative viewpoint! Thank you!

From the outside, it's hard to know what to believe. I'm not just going to take your word for it, but it's at least nice to see someone making the point that it's not as black-and-white as it seems.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#75

Post by Mikeb85 »

kremlin wrote: post #74
Mikeb85 wrote: post #64

The reality distortion field the protesters have formed is impressive. They've completely overshadowed a few key points: - The Yanukovych government offered a power-sharing agreement with the opposition, offering Yatsenyuk the PM position and Klitschko the deputy PM job, which the opposition rejected: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-oppositions-rejects-vik... - The fascist element - one of the opposition leaders…

I appreciate this alternative viewpoint! Thank you! From the outside, it's hard to know what to believe. I'm not just going to take your word for it, but it's at least nice to see someone making the point that it's not as black-and-white as it seems.

Don't take my word for it. Just realize that there are 2 sides, and 2 viewpoints to read...

All the media coverage has been very one sided...

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#76

Post by prostoalex »

altero wrote: post #68
prostoalex wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to specific paragraphs that would do such things?

For start Ukraine treaty does not handle subsidies. So France and other countries would be able to 'dump' their subsidized agricaltural product on Ukranien market. Ukraine farmers do not get subsidy, they have higher prices and would eventually bankrupt. Industry is concetrated on east and exports/imports mainly to Russia. EU would make it very hard to trade with Russia. Factories could not sell product and could not…

> For start Ukraine treaty does not handle subsidies.

Article 32.1 states: "Upon entry into force of this Agreement, no Party shall maintain, introduce or reintroduce export subsidies or other measures with equivalent effect on agricultural goods destined for the territory of the other Party." And then it relegates the finer details to WTO treaties, which Ukraine already signed.

> EU would make it very hard to trade with Russia.

Which part of the agreement would make it difficult?

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#77

Post by bluekeybox »

memracom wrote: post #69

Just remember that everything you read/see about Ukraine is propaganda published by someone who is trying to get you to agree with their point of view. They are careful to select their photos to not show the things that they don't want you to know about. For instance, these photos careful do not show the neo-nazi far right groups, the people with handguns, or the police being hit by flaming molotov cocktails or wound…

> Until then it is just a corner of the Soviet Union that has failed to catch up with the modern world.

Sounding a little patronizing here, no?

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#79

Post by coldtea »

rosser wrote: post #67
coldtea wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Joining the common European market would be a great step towards prosperity, sure, with mutual benefits for everyone, as well as increased security, stability and peace. Having a large common market you can buy from and sell to is pretty awesome, actually. Add the pretty great more human benefits (freedom of movement, freedom of labor) and it’s a pretty great perspective. LOL, just ask the Spanish, Portuguese, Ital…

Aside: you can reply to a comment before its "reply" link has appeared by following the "link" link in the comment's header (next to its score and age/timestamp and such), instead of replying to its parent and breaking the conversation's flow.

Thanks, didn't knew that!

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#80

Post by memracom »

mladenkovacevic wrote: post #26
yetanotherphd wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

who do you think is being manipulated? Statements like that are useless without some elaboration.

The protesters are manipulated into thinking that joining EU and getting rid of Yanukovich is somehow the first step to prosperity... And the blogosphere is manipulated into buying this as some kind of completely spontaneous grass roots movement. Sure people want change.. But this is bankrolled elsewhere.. I bet it wasn't that expensive either.

Manipulated is the right word. Turkey has been trying to get into the EU for 30 years and it is still waiting. If Ukraine had signed that agreement, their politicians would right now be churning out new laws every week and the country would likely to be even more up in arms about the vastness of the changes. And they still would have the same strict visa requirements to get into the EU to work because those don't even have to change when a country is an official member. Rumania and Bulgaria learned this when they became EU members and many countries implemented strict visa quotas that prevented these new Europeans from working in other EU countries.

Anytime you read about a nationalist movement or an independence movement, someone is being manipulated. Independent nations are no longer possible in the modern world. Every country is now dependent on, and must cooperate with its neighbors. For Ukraine, that means its largest trading partner, Russia. Even the other EU countries are busy coming to all kinds of agreements, accords and treaties with Russia.

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