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How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

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Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#411

Post by hpagey »

Patrick_Devine wrote: post #301
rgovind wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The H1B issue is absolutely about providing cheap, endentured labour: visa holders are tied to their sponsoring employer and must appeal to be allowed to seek other employment This is plain wrong. You can very easily shift and people do shift. You just interview with a different company, just like a citizen would.

Sure, but you can only renew the H1-B once (although you can get extensions). Also, most companies make it a policy to not sponsor you for a green card unless you've put in a year or two, and then once you apply for it they've got you by the balls. So every time you switch companies, you're starting the clock over again. This is even worse if a company brings you in through some other visa like a TN-1 or L1 (NAFTA an…

Your statement " So every time you switch companies, you're starting the clock over again." is incorrect. After your i-140 is cleared and you have received your priority date you can port your i-140 and retain your priority date. Your clock doesn't reset per se.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#412

Post by jazzyk »

jfasi wrote: post #381

Does anyone else find it amusing that the author is trying to put an "income inequality" spin on an article about tech employees being forced to take low to mid six figure salaries?

No, I don't find it amusing. I think you missed the point. What is being discussed is _relative_compensation. Relative to additional revenue generated, or relative to what other professionals (doctors/lawyers) make. Keep thinking like a slave, you will be one for life.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#413

Post by DamnYuppie »

mindcrime wrote: post #375
DamnYuppie wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You believe that this ends at Silicon Valley. This most likely is common practice across a multitude of companies and industries.

There's just no way that every (or even most) companies in, say, the US, are all collectively colluding to do much of anything, much less fix wages. There's a reason that cartels don't really work, and that's because somebody always has an incentive to cheat. Same deal here... even IF you got every single company to agree to fix programmer salaries, it would never hold up, because some member of the group would eithe…

It doesn't take every company, it realistically takes less then 30%.

I have never seen companies trying to pay more then the bare minimum to get someone to fill the role. Being generous, sadly, isn't in the DNA of the majority of organizations. They always attempt to pay as little as needed.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#414

Post by coronadelmar »

aspensmonster wrote: post #14

Jobs' comments: >OK, I’ll tell our recruiters they are free to approach any Adobe employee who is not a Sr. Director or VP. Am I understanding your position correctly? >if you [Brin] hire a single one of these people that means war. Chizen's comment: >if I tell Steve [Jobs] it’s open season (other than senior managers), he will deliberately poach Adobe just to prove a point. Knowing Steve, he will go after some of ou…

In what moral universe is offering someone a job (and a better paying one) being an asshole?

Additionally, this is gossip and presumption.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#415

Post by conanbatt »

GFischer wrote: post #340
conanbatt wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1-B leaves as an indentured servant? I am working in the US under a temporary work visa, and by no means Im enslaved or abused. I have a market competitive wage for my skills, and have the most engaging and rewarding job i ever found as a software engineer other than personal projects. In fact, It's a huge effort and sacrifice to move to the US for work, leaving friends and family behind. US is not qatar, i can alwa…

I agree that calling an H1B an "indentured servant" is a bit of an hyperbole. But you certainly have a lot lower leverage than an US citizen. As you say, you can leave whenever you want, but you went through hardships to go to the US, and back in Argentina you're going to find awful working conditions - a 25.000 pesos salary is about 1500 dollars right now, good luck with that, and that's the salary I was offered not…

Of course there is definitely a leverage difference, but its impossible to completely eliminate that in a migratory concern. Argentina has very low requirments for immigration, so if an american went looking for work there, he wouldnt have nearly as much hassle from the government to do it. And even then, he would be less leveraged than locals: "you dont know the language as fluently" , or the market, or whatever.

About the argentinian wages: you can work from argentina to an outside company as well, which is what i used to do. Wages are less, but so are taxes and cost of living. If you want to get a US wage and live the Argentinian life, you are taking the best from one and the best from the other, its not a sensible comparison.

At least with what I see on the visa, companies have a lot to lose by "abusing" the power: a formal complaint could put the organization under review and that is probably not a walk in the park.

Overall, from the US market perspective, getting "slightly cheaper labor" is still much better than straight down outsourcing.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#416

Post by will_work4tears »

vasilipupkin wrote: post #346
stbtrax wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done this same calculation and I found the opposite. And after I moved I realized that you have to also factor in how much more awesome the Bay Area is. I've been able to be outside most days this winter hiking and doing other outdoor activities. I can't imagine going back to winters where I'm trapped indoors.

That's not entirely valid, that's a subjective judgement. I live in Chicago and I hate the outdoors. Just a simple back of the envelope calculation tells you Chicago software developers make about the same or more ( because trading companies pay more ) as SF developers yet cost of living is 2.5-3 times higher in SF. It's hard to explain this as a mere correlation with the known fact of illegal collusion.

Cost of living or the cost of housing? Because they aren't the same. Sure, rent/mortgage payments take a huge toll, but it isn't like that Ramen costs 3x as much or that you pay 3x as much for gas or a new car. I'd wager the costs of goods are not even close to 1.5x.

I broke down some numbers awhile back comparing Seattle to SF, because a guy claimed that 80k in Seattle is the same as 200k in SF. Clearly not. Even after paying 4x my current mortgage I had thousands of extra dollars a MONTH of free spending money. Hardly the pity party I see from all the comments.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#417

Post by pille »

auctiontheory wrote: post #374
pille wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't. Germany is having its own little housing price explosion in every major city where there is employment. Prices are being driven up by wealthy non-tech investors throughout the EU thinking German (and London) real estate is the only safe place to hold onto their fortunes. Consumer goods prices are also significantly higher than in the US. Healthcare is approximately the same cost now from what I've seen wi…

Healthcare is approximately the same cost now from what I've seen with ACA prices in the US. Are you using ACA? (I am.) Do Germans have to pay $500-$1000/month, maybe more if you're older, for a plan that pays almost 80% of their in-network costs? And speaking of those costs, how much is an endoscopy in Germany? Here I was just quoted $8000.

German healthcare is clearly superior by any measure not thought up by a Koch-Brothers think-tank. It covers 100% of treatment, and even if it didn't, list prices for treatment are not off-the-wall absurd. I'm not arguing that the ACA fixed US health care, nor would I.

My point was that the cost of living here is also very high. Sure, there are EU/US trade-offs all over the place, but they are not anywhere near big enough for you (or the GP, or anyone) to just wave away a factor-of-three pay difference.

Btw, yes, last I checked my monthly premium is over 400€, so it cleanly weighs in within the range you name. I switched to private insurance because public 'Krankenkasse' charges a percentage of gross income, which would turn out to be even more. Not complaining, just answering your question in case you really wanted to know.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#418

Post by SkyMarshal »

Already__Taken wrote: post #317
dba7dba wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately most people only know/worship Jobs. Few non-geeks know about Wozniak. Sad.

It sounds like he likes it that way.

Not when it results in lies and historical revisionism that besmirch his true legacy:

https://plus.google.com/+CarmsPerez/posts/GnVTvQNgvpf

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#419

Post by jazzyk »

sjg007 wrote: post #373
aswanson wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is, boutique implies specialty. In tech, specialties involve short term expertise. Experience works against specialists in our field, whereas in fields like law and medicine, specialization is likely to increase value over a career lifetime. We are up against a far more sinister s-curve in the experience/perceived utility equation.

I would argue that specialization in software is more about delivering solutions and value. I agree that in general technology evolves, but there is clearly a 20+ year lifespan for some technologies. Cobol is still in demand. As a botique software shop you offer a company critical business infrastructure that gives them an edge. 90% of the software in business is developed or customized for the client. As developers…

And how many Cobol jobs do you see advertised? Close to zero. I am an independent consultant, with 20+ years of experience. Let me tell you, noone who is looking to hire me gives a damn what I did 5 or 10 years ago. The technical problems (and tools used to solve them) 10 years ago were very different than today (even though you and I know that certain principles remain the same). I work pretty hard to remain current/relevant. I often joke that software engineers should be paid like star athletes or actors - their shelf time is limited.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#420

Post by ufmace »

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #307
textminer wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me too. Forty minute drive from Oakland to Menlo Park.

I would be troubled by the thought of spending 80 minutes each day trapped in a steel cage. That's 400 minutes per week, or about 300 hours per year just sitting in traffic. Even if SV were the best place to be an engineer, it's hard to imagine it being worth sacrificing 300 hours per year. A 10 minute commute is 25% of that, which is 75 hours per year, which is still a lot. But for me, there is a huge psychological…

Cutting commutes up into hours per year doesn't seem all that useful. Lots of stuff takes up what sounds like ridiculous amounts of time if you look at it like that. I'd rather look at it in terms of your day.

If you plan to spend 8-9ish hours actually working, and another 10 per day on sleeping, eating, shower, and other such necessities, that leaves about 5 hours of real free time. A hour and a half a day of commute time is a pretty solid cut into that. 20 minutes of commute time is hardly noticable. Personally, I'd sooner take the 10 minute commute and have that mental seperation between work time and off time than have an extra 20 minutes a day and work at home.

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