How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages • Hacker News Board

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#371

Post by ryanSrich » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 3:46 PM UTC

robyates wrote: post #274

debt wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a student, I would still recommend moving to SV. It's probably the best place in the world right now to be a software developer. This wage-theft stuff is for very experienced echelons of engineers.

Agreed, there many good positions for new college grads. I don't think there is any better location than SV when starting a software engineering career. While housing prices are quite high, working in technology you are certainly able to afford the higher rents. The problem is when you don't work in tech and live here.

I'd have to respectfully disagree. While I've never worked in the valley I have researched and interviewed with 10+ companies there.

My findings were that startups there are extremely busy. They are slow to respond to emails, meetings and interviews are often missed/rescheduled, and salaries are relatively low (Compare that to Austin, Seattle, DC, Chicago, and Portland, who all have thriving startup communities that often match SV wages, and SV starts to look less appealing.

SV working conditions are not something a college grad should strive for. They should focus on locking down a nice salary with relatively cheap living costs, clearing themselves of debt, and growing their personal worth with side projects.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#372

Post by raganwald » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 3:57 PM UTC

alanh wrote: post #238

hashmap wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? A "free market" encourages exactly this behavior! If it weren't illegal it would go on indefinitely.

I think the parent meant that this collusion artificially denied what would otherwise be a fair market for the employees . Of course, you are entirely correct that this sort of thing is allowed if no regulation is placed on the corporations.

free market != fair market

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#373

Post by sjg007 » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 4:03 PM UTC

aswanson wrote: post #117

sjg007 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, make partner in a boutique software consulting firm.

Problem is, boutique implies specialty. In tech, specialties involve short term expertise. Experience works against specialists in our field, whereas in fields like law and medicine, specialization is likely to increase value over a career lifetime. We are up against a far more sinister s-curve in the experience/perceived utility equation.

I would argue that specialization in software is more about delivering solutions and value. I agree that in general technology evolves, but there is clearly a 20+ year lifespan for some technologies. Cobol is still in demand. As a botique software shop you offer a company critical business infrastructure that gives them an edge. 90% of the software in business is developed or customized for the client. As developers we don't necessarily like it because it is not always elegant or optimal but it exists.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#374

Post by auctiontheory » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 4:05 PM UTC

pille wrote: post #292

auctiontheory wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in Germany I'd be hard-pressed to find you a non-management tech job that makes north of 90k USD/year. How is that relevant? (And) Once you factor in healthcare, education (for kids) and housing, I suspect that 90K USD in Berlin goes just as far as 200K USD in Silicon Valley, probably a lot further.

It doesn't. Germany is having its own little housing price explosion in every major city where there is employment. Prices are being driven up by wealthy non-tech investors throughout the EU thinking German (and London) real estate is the only safe place to hold onto their fortunes. Consumer goods prices are also significantly higher than in the US. Healthcare is approximately the same cost now from what I've seen wi…

Healthcare is approximately the same cost now from what I've seen with ACA prices in the US.

Are you using ACA? (I am.) Do Germans have to pay $500-$1000/month, maybe more if you're older, for a plan that pays almost 80% of their in-network costs? And speaking of those costs, how much is an endoscopy in Germany? Here I was just quoted $8000.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#375

Post by mindcrime » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 4:12 PM UTC

DamnYuppie wrote: post #356

eru wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world is bigger than a few companies in Silicon Valley. Go work for a bank, in the worst case.

You believe that this ends at Silicon Valley. This most likely is common practice across a multitude of companies and industries.

There's just no way that every (or even most) companies in, say, the US, are all collectively colluding to do much of anything, much less fix wages. There's a reason that cartels don't really work, and that's because somebody always has an incentive to cheat. Same deal here... even IF you got every single company to agree to fix programmer salaries, it would never hold up, because some member of the group would either find a way to pay more and disguise it somehow, or they'd flat out openly rebel and take their chances.

Does this happen on a small scale among handfuls of companies? Almost certainly, as we've seen. But how much impact it has at a more macro level is certainly questionable.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#376

Post by caniszczyk » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 4:15 PM UTC

tricolon wrote: post #310

enraged_camel wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong. It needs to be approved, which can take months unless you pay extra for "premium processing."

You are wrong. It only needs to be filed. See the underlined word "filing": http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/FactSheet62/whdfs62W....

He isn't wrong. I've had friends that had their processing take much longer and go into a more detailed review which delayed them taking a job. You can also get your "H1B transfer" denied for the new job even if you're doing a similar job to your old gig

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#377

Post by caniszczyk » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 4:15 PM UTC

ryanSrich wrote: post #371

robyates wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, there many good positions for new college grads. I don't think there is any better location than SV when starting a software engineering career. While housing prices are quite high, working in technology you are certainly able to afford the higher rents. The problem is when you don't work in tech and live here.

I'd have to respectfully disagree. While I've never worked in the valley I have researched and interviewed with 10+ companies there. My findings were that startups there are extremely busy. They are slow to respond to emails, meetings and interviews are often missed/rescheduled, and salaries are relatively low ( Compare that to Austin, Seattle, DC, Chicago, and Portland, who all have thriving startup communities that…

This man knows what he's talking about, listen to him kids

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#378

Post by AnneTheAgile » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 4:16 PM UTC

Since CA is one of the few states that bars non-competes, I doubt this lawsuit could have been brought forth in any other state. Lawyers out there, am I right? In NYC for example, the non-competes are draconian, and there is far less movement between companies. In SiV, fortunately, movement is the norm.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#379

Post by presspot » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 4:18 PM UTC

My personal experience is that the pay structure at Google has not depressed wages at all. It's not unusual to encounter a mid-tier engineering lead pulling down $650k+/yr (with stock), working 40 hours a week. Try hiring that person away from Google. It's nearly impossible to match that kind of take-home without turning your business completely upside down.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#380

Post by clavalle » Fri, Jan 24, 2014, 4:26 PM UTC

pg wrote: post #148

It seems like we should be able to measure whatever effect there was. There must be sources of data about salaries in the Bay Area. Has anyone tried looking to see if there is a depression in tech workers' salaries, relative to people in other fields, during the time this agreement was in force?

I am not entirely sure that 'relative to other fields' is a useful metric in this case.

Maybe if we could restrict those fields to others in the middle of a boom or otherwise in a fierce competition for talent...petroleum and other engineers in the oil industry in the past few years, for example. (though I'd wonder if the big players in that industry have similar pacts in place).

I don't know. It would be difficult to hold enough variables constant to make any useful comparisons but there might be something in the broad strokes.