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How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

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Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#131
post #81
post #26

Engineers should make more money than what they are making now. The largest number I heard lately is $240k for a data scientist from Apple. That's too low! That person can make Siri better and make millions for Apple. Why aren't we getting paid like lawyers? If they win $20M they will get paid at least $2M. But if we make a product that generates $20M profit, at best we get $20K bonus. This has to change!

There are several reasons why software engineers are underpaid compared to their performance. Keep in mind these are generalizations and therefore you will find exceptions to what I outline below. -Software developers typically aren't comfortable negotiating, nor are we well versed at it. Therefore, we accept job offers for less than we know we are worth and accept raises offered rather than negotiate raises based on…

If you are really good with programming, I guess the only reasonable thing to do is start a Software firm as a solo practitioner or as a partner with other Software developers.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a fairly weak attempt at 'collusion'. What form of success here qualifies as "weak?" If big tech companies are colluding to depress engineer wages, they're pretty obviously failing. You're going to have to show your work here.

The fact that I'm a 21 year old drop out making nearly 100k because I sat in my mom's basement for a few years and studied software that interested me is pretty crazy.

This is true, but irrelevant.

Market price is market price. These companies are generating massive income. They are paying high wages (and colluding to avoid paying higher ones) because engineers are necessary to that.

The question you should ask during salary negotiations isn't, "Do I, based on my own value judgments and moral code, deserve this much money?" It's: "Are they paying me market price for my skills?"

If market price for your work is more money than you need or you believe you deserve, then take it and give it to somebody you think does deserve it. I promise you that if you let your employer keep the extra, they will not do anything better than you will with it.

Take the money.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#133
post #97

The article claims that a "no-poach" agreement constitutes "wage theft". I lost count at how many times that phrase was used in the article, but it was probably fifteen times. It's completely incorrect, dishonest, and overdramatic to the point of being insulting. I accuse pandodaily of brain theft. HN needs a kill file, I have truly never read an intelligent article from them.

I get why you are upset about that, in that it's a term of art that is being misused. But given that the goal was to keep wages lower so that companies could pocket the money, it's not an unreasonable way to describe it casually.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If big tech companies are colluding to depress engineer wages, they're pretty obviously failing. How do you conclude that they're failing?

Astroturfing

I assume that the poster was being genuine, but is also suffering wage-shock - the wages that tech workers get are so much higher than what he/she was used to getting, and for far less (apparent) effort than people who make peanuts. It seems unfair, until you realize how much money the company is getting for these services.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#135
All of the excuses and rationalizations I see posted here make me ill. It's like very few "peons" understand the mentality of those who are "in charge" - e.g. the Clueless, Loser, Sociopath hierarchy of how businesses are structured. There has been a recent spate of stories across the web about how wealth affects people's mentality and behavior - I am reminded now of a story about India and how the stark class differences there motivate those at the upper end to treat those not in their own class as even human.... it is more subtle, but just as bad here in the UK. Why would it be any different in the West? How in the world is Silicon Valley, or IT in general, any much different than any other business sector? It is a fundamental characteristic of capitalism that capital will try to exploit labor as much as possible and by any means available. Engineers getting $250K a year is irrelevant - those people are still just "house niggers"...

As a middle class American, admittedly clueless, the education I've gotten over the past decade has been eye opening. And a bit late; I wish I'd learned this stuff years ago. But that is the dark side of being an engineer - the work and the creative aspects can swamp everything else. Other creative professions have this same basic problem, with the business major types exploiting them as much as possible. And basic Marxist theory is even more forbidden than rational thought about drugs in America...

i am not a raving Marxist, but after the last 4 years of my life getting shafted by one of the new crop of robber barons (an out and out sociopath) (yes, I have finally graduated from the Loser class (or been expelled)) it's... christ. Humanity is so tiresome. I've had some great bosses, mind you, and worked for some good companies. But the capital-labor relationship is fundamentally deteriorating and with the coming rise of automation and increased population and refusal to raise taxes and all these other social forces I see, the future looks very dystopian over the next 20 years. Things are getting such that the only logical position to take is that you incorporate yourself and thus you can act as sociopathic as you need to, given everyone else is acting the same. Does anyone with any sense want to live in such a world? I'd like to just do a good day's work, get paid fairly for it and not have to spend more time figuring out how to protect myself from getting screwed over - or figuring out how to screw over the next guy. I can't do my best possible work otherwise. I've got better things to do than play social games. This is something Ayn Rand touched upon in Altas Shrugged, as reviled as that book might be. Lots of capitalists these days are nothing but the social leeches that she railed against, despite their hypocritical protests to the contrary.

I guess I am a Marxist, or at least see the slice of truth about life and society that it reveals. There is a value in honest work, in creating something useful for society - that is something fundamental to being a real engineer. IT likes to claim that is a fundamental value of the profession, but I don't see that anymore (in general). There is too much money sloshing around. Things are getting out of balance. I can only hope the social strife prevalent in the 30s (go read some American history) comes about again - OWS and the protests in the Bay Area now are only the beginning. Then again, the resurgence of the fundamental social forces motivating the 60s that happened in the very early days of the rave scene got explicitly squashed by the authoritarian parts of the power structures in society.... Yes, I do have some stories.

Fortunately, climate change will smack humanity upside the head and force us to start thinking differently.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#136
post #26

Engineers should make more money than what they are making now. The largest number I heard lately is $240k for a data scientist from Apple. That's too low! That person can make Siri better and make millions for Apple. Why aren't we getting paid like lawyers? If they win $20M they will get paid at least $2M. But if we make a product that generates $20M profit, at best we get $20K bonus. This has to change!

The reason is "free market" is only for the big people -- not for the "human capital". Free market is just an illusion that is fixed that people believe in. It was never meant to be free and much more it was never be meant to be just.

Remember the case, an engineer got lower wages just because he was from India? Also his boss was not allowed to offer him higher wages from the upper management.

The existing free market system is only free, if you understand it as "law of the jungle".

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#137
post #26

Engineers should make more money than what they are making now. The largest number I heard lately is $240k for a data scientist from Apple. That's too low! That person can make Siri better and make millions for Apple. Why aren't we getting paid like lawyers? If they win $20M they will get paid at least $2M. But if we make a product that generates $20M profit, at best we get $20K bonus. This has to change!

Are you actually complaining about 240k? If that isn't myopia, idk what is. Most people would kill for that salary.

So what? Most people in the world would kill to make $30k a year.

The issue isn't the absolute level of compensation, but the relative split between labor and management/capital. Exploitation is exploitation: a Roman house slave, though better than the majority of slaves, is still exploited and still a slave.

And why are you complaining about engineers wanting to get paid closer to the value they provide the company? It's no skin off your back: sure, it might eat into shareholder and upper management salaries, but they get paid in the millions, which even more people would kill for.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#138
post #35
post #26

Engineers should make more money than what they are making now. The largest number I heard lately is $240k for a data scientist from Apple. That's too low! That person can make Siri better and make millions for Apple. Why aren't we getting paid like lawyers? If they win $20M they will get paid at least $2M. But if we make a product that generates $20M profit, at best we get $20K bonus. This has to change!

They way you change it is by starting your own company.

Unfortunately, starting your own company is a high-risk path to change it & no guarantee that you will make more money. A lawyer, doctor, trader, or investment banker does not have to take the risk of starting his own firm in order to make significantly more than the highest level engineers.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#140
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. A competent freelance developer in the valley will make $150-200/h. A competent lawyer (not a partner) in the valley will make $350+/h.

I know lawyers who charge $1000+/hour. Name me one programmer who can do the same. Outsourcing has killed our industry in terms of monetary compensation

I would suggest to you to think your premises carefully before coming to such conclusions. When in an unfair situation, it is easy to be angry at a group that you consider as 'outsiders'. However, even with outsourcing, there are thousands of open positions for software developers/architects that are just not getting filled.

The only real solution to this problem that I can see is for each of us to be so super smart and accomplished that we have the capacity to make a significant contribution that not many others can. And then develop the social skills to demand the kind of money that we (fairly) think we deserve.

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