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How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

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Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#81
post #26

Engineers should make more money than what they are making now. The largest number I heard lately is $240k for a data scientist from Apple. That's too low! That person can make Siri better and make millions for Apple. Why aren't we getting paid like lawyers? If they win $20M they will get paid at least $2M. But if we make a product that generates $20M profit, at best we get $20K bonus. This has to change!

There are several reasons why software engineers are underpaid compared to their performance. Keep in mind these are generalizations and therefore you will find exceptions to what I outline below.

-Software developers typically aren't comfortable negotiating, nor are we well versed at it. Therefore, we accept job offers for less than we know we are worth and accept raises offered rather than negotiate raises based on our actual performance. -We have no collective bargaining capability, and anyone can enter the field. In Canada engineers have a professional designation, the software industry is typically not a part of that collective. Lawyers have the bar exam to pass before they can practice. These restrictions restrict the labor supply in those industries to ensure higher wages. In our industry anyone can join, even foreigners, or employers can even outsource the labor to another cheaper country. This has the combined effective of raising the labor supply, and reducing our ability to negotiate as a group. -It is difficult to measure the performance from one developer to another. Look at sales as an industry, it is very easy to measure a top performer. If we were better able to demonstrate performance it would be easier for a developer to earn 50% more than his/her peers. Where I live some shops that hire refuse to pay even 10% more for a developer because they are filling head count and treat developers somewhat like a commodity.

The above realization has left me a little jaded. I love this field, but realize that I can earn more selling software than building software.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#82
post #26

Engineers should make more money than what they are making now. The largest number I heard lately is $240k for a data scientist from Apple. That's too low! That person can make Siri better and make millions for Apple. Why aren't we getting paid like lawyers? If they win $20M they will get paid at least $2M. But if we make a product that generates $20M profit, at best we get $20K bonus. This has to change!

Are you actually complaining about 240k? If that isn't myopia, idk what is. Most people would kill for that salary.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#83
post #70

The typical response I hear to the idea of more widespread labor unions or AMA-like professional associations for programmers and network/systems/storage/database administrators is that if someone is really talented, they can negotiate a good salary, and that labor organizing together would just protect the lazy and the slackers. You hear this same thing when someone is lowballed a salary number, or has to put up wit…

1. This is not a zero-sum game. The incremental value gained by a large company defrauding their employees may be the same dollar amount, but to the employees it makes a much larger subjective difference. Also the company that gets caught colluding once will have a much harder time regaining its good name. A tech employee gets offered $300k/year + options? He jumps. Google's "double irish" has $3 billion more in reve…

> Society's behavior just serves to convince us that the hacker ethos was right after all. … We are decentralized. No thank you to all forms of government.

Well, I'm certainly convinced that pure optimism will trump powerful interests with huge financial reserves and far more influence with lawmakers and the media. How could this not succeed?

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#84
Yeah hate to spoil the party, but this is not 'wage theft'. Wage theft is very specifically the act of withholding wages that an employee is entitled to according to the terms of his or her employment agreement.

What happened here is not even 'price-fixing', it's a fairly weak attempt at 'collusion'. Yes, it seems improper at first blush and the email exchanges are almost comically incriminating, but my guess is that it didn't really have a substantial effect on the engineer salaries write large (or even executive salaries). Agreeing not to cold-call employees is not the same thing as refusing to hire them; that latter would have had a major depressing effect on wages (kind of like if all MLB teams had a handshake agreement to never sign another team's free agent) but that clearly isn't what happened here.

It seems to me like the proof is in the pudding. If big tech companies are colluding to depress engineer wages, they're pretty obviously failing.

Anyway, I have no idea how this lawsuit will shake out, but I know that Pando Daily is doing a shit-ass job of reporting, and I regret clicking on the link and giving them the additional pageview.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#85
post #57

I don't agree that these agreements are ethical, but can someone explain how they're different from the way a professional sports team manages the rules for players transitioning from team to team? Perhaps the leagues should have more oversight too? Note that this completely ignores the NFL's non-profit status ... why was that ever granted?

NFL players are all members of a union and collectively negotiate those rules.

(I doubt the league especially factors into the terms of the contracts between teams and players, but the non-profit status is probably granted because the team owners extract profits and the league just keeps the wheels turning, there isn't an owner that makes money on the league itself)

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#86

The typical response I hear to the idea of more widespread labor unions or AMA-like professional associations for programmers and network/systems/storage/database administrators is that if someone is really talented, they can negotiate a good salary, and that labor organizing together would just protect the lazy and the slackers. You hear this same thing when someone is lowballed a salary number, or has to put up wit…

As a H1-B myself, I think I'm pretty much a modern-day slave without the physical shackles. I hate going back to my home country and I love the intellectual, rational environment here. But I'm stuck with my current company until I get a green card which isn't bound to happen in the foreseeable future. I read his book on this and I agree with one of Matloff's points that H1-B should be solely for talent and I also agr…

It's not that H1-B's get paid less than other workers, it is that by having more people available to do the same job it decreases the pay for all people doing said job. That's how the logic would appear to work, supply and demand, etc.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#87
post #26

Engineers should make more money than what they are making now. The largest number I heard lately is $240k for a data scientist from Apple. That's too low! That person can make Siri better and make millions for Apple. Why aren't we getting paid like lawyers? If they win $20M they will get paid at least $2M. But if we make a product that generates $20M profit, at best we get $20K bonus. This has to change!

Interestingly enough if you work for a financial firm (doing their software) you'll likely get paid significantly better than many tech jobs. Largely due to bonuses based off how much money you bring to the company.

Further, 240k for a data scientist isn't necessarily low, they are one of a team and the person who "made" Siri likely is paid much better (I could be wrong, as I do not know for certain).

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#88
post #13

Every time I read an article about this I fell like I'm at The Onion. Drive ++down++ engineer wages? Really? Does anyone on planet earth feel like engineer wages are/were artificially low?

They could be , it's all relative of course. The most affected engineers in this case were likely the cream of the crop. It's in a way analogous to professional sports, where (if salaries were truly unrestricted) the very top players could easily demand a multiple of their already astronomical salaries. To combat this, some leagues like the NBA have 'salary caps' and 'maximum contracts'. You won't see the government…

these teams also have minimums they must spend on players and minimum salaries per player. in the MLB and NBA the player's unions are very powerful and salaries would likely fall without them (NFL is a different story)

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#89
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's US culture - people are easily and often fired. Very different other places, even in tech, e.g. Israel, Germany.

And in Germany I'd be hard-pressed to find you a non-management tech job that makes north of 90k USD/year. It would be great if someone could prove me wrong.

90k USD ist just shy of 66k Euro, which is by no means unheard of for an experienced developer.

I know personal anecdotes doesn't count for much, but I turned down several 80k offers in Berlin. I would expect salaries in Munich to be 10-15% higher due to cost of living.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#90

Yeah hate to spoil the party, but this is not 'wage theft'. Wage theft is very specifically the act of withholding wages that an employee is entitled to according to the terms of his or her employment agreement. What happened here is not even 'price-fixing', it's a fairly weak attempt at 'collusion'. Yes, it seems improper at first blush and the email exchanges are almost comically incriminating, but my guess is that…

If big tech companies are colluding to depress engineer wages, they're pretty obviously failing.

How do you conclude that they're failing?

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