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Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

nytimes.com

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Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#51

Post by IgorPartola »

pstack wrote: post #50

The whole "and should end" thing always makes me laugh. Oh, we just determined that violating the constitutional limitations on government is against the constitution, so we're going to stop violating the constitution, now. None of these idiots thought they were doing anything but violating the law for the past several decades. They just didn't care . And they still don't. And they won't. This big display right now i…

I disagree. American history is full of government actions that were later found unconstitutional and were abandoned and condemned. Think about slavery, women's voting rights, mistreatment of the Japanese during WWII, McCarthyism, segregation and the civil rights movement, and now finally marriage equality. These things unfortunately take longer than a few months to get shut down, but they do stop.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#52

Post by [deleted] »

gareim wrote: post #22
dragonwriter wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your hypothetical makes no sense. If they have "probable cause" before tapping his phone, that means that the "left no evidence other than incriminating phone calls" must be false.

No, probable cause is not the same thing as evidence. His hypothetical is actually how warrants are supposed to work. Law enforcement have probable cause to suspect someone of being guilty. If they can make a strong argument about why the person is probably guilty, they then get a warrant to search for evidence in homes, phone calls, emails, whatever. His hypothetical literally described the standard for getting a wa…

[deleted]

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#54

Post by midas007 »

revelation wrote: post #49
hooande wrote: post #23

The NSA has committed no crimes. As an organization, they've acted within the bounds of the law and done exactly what they were supposed to do. This watchdog report is saying that the law is not in the interest of the people and it should be changed. But until that happens, the NSA is in the right to continue with business as usual. Our constitution prohibits ex post facto law. This means that someone can't be charge…

Can we stop with the nonsense "they have comitted no crimes" line? They have violated orders by FISC and overstepped their boundaries in many cases before the FISC, then lied to it. So of course they comitted crimes, it's just that the punishment (or due process) is nonexistant.

With the sheer volume of laws on the books, it's a foregone conclusion that they have broken as many as a prosecutor cares to find.

Although it's doubtful anyone will be imprisoned for "doing their patriotic duty."

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#55

Post by idProQuo »

gareim wrote: post #22
dragonwriter wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your hypothetical makes no sense. If they have "probable cause" before tapping his phone, that means that the "left no evidence other than incriminating phone calls" must be false.

No, probable cause is not the same thing as evidence. His hypothetical is actually how warrants are supposed to work. Law enforcement have probable cause to suspect someone of being guilty. If they can make a strong argument about why the person is probably guilty, they then get a warrant to search for evidence in homes, phone calls, emails, whatever. His hypothetical literally described the standard for getting a wa…

The issue I have with the hypothetical is: how would they know about the phone calls without a wiretap? If there was no other reason to suspect the guy, they'd have no basis for probable cause, and thus no way to get a wiretap.

Now if someone tells the police that they've been getting incriminating phone calls, well then that seems like more reasonable probable cause, and doesn't strike me as morally dubious.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#56

Post by dclowd9901 »

rhizome wrote: post #2

I'd say it was cowardly and poor leadership for Obama to get this report and still half-step his speech, if not anti-democratic. There's something he won't tell us.

What? You thought a lame duck president was going to up and dismantle a trillion dollar defense measure? Come on...

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#57

Post by Zigurd »

hooande wrote: post #23

The NSA has committed no crimes. As an organization, they've acted within the bounds of the law and done exactly what they were supposed to do. This watchdog report is saying that the law is not in the interest of the people and it should be changed. But until that happens, the NSA is in the right to continue with business as usual. Our constitution prohibits ex post facto law. This means that someone can't be charge…

The US and its opinions are not the whole world, and are not where American tech companies get most of their revenue, which (vide IBM) has taken a big hit. The US has done wrong, and is being punished by having the US tech industry become provincial. Our remaining markets will be among customers in the Five Eyes nations, because nobody believes our products are not penetrated by spy agencies.

That's a real crime, and it will affect American people in the coming years in highly visible ways. It is a real and present crime against the industry many people here work in. It will affect how, at least, governments and industries who have an interest in not being spied on operate, and perhaps ordinary people, too.

You have stated the position for putting our fingers in our ears and relying on the public's apathy. I'm pretty sure the big enterprise customers in BRIC/MINT markets are not apathetic.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#58

Post by ItendToDisagree »

midas007 wrote: post #54
revelation wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we stop with the nonsense "they have comitted no crimes" line? They have violated orders by FISC and overstepped their boundaries in many cases before the FISC, then lied to it. So of course they comitted crimes, it's just that the punishment (or due process) is nonexistant.

With the sheer volume of laws on the books, it's a foregone conclusion that they have broken as many as a prosecutor cares to find. Although it's doubtful anyone will be imprisoned for "doing their patriotic duty."

Or for lying to congress during a hearing and then admitting to it by saying they wanted to use the 'least untruthful answer' (which is false on its face because the truth is the least untruthful answer.) But c'est la vie power protects power.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#59

Post by ajays »

codex wrote: post #8
sigil wrote: post #3

Brand also worried that declaring that counterterrorism officials “have been operating this program unlawfully for years” could damage morale and make agencies overly cautious in taking steps to protect the country. It's great to have another voice speaking up against mass surveillance. Still -- you're telling me these agencies are in all likelihood committing crimes against the American people, but we need to be car…

They're not committing crimes against the American people. Not one American has been found who has been demonstrably harmed by any NSA program. Without harm, there no criminal act. That said, something can be unlawful without being criminal.

"Not one American has been found who has been demonstrably harmed by any NSA program."

As an American, how would I know? It is against the law to read my mail; but if the government has been secretly reading my mail without my knowledge, then by your logic (and I use that word lightly here) I have not been harmed, since I didn't know about it?

Do you even know the meaning of the word "rights" ? My rights have been violated; I don't have to demonstrate harm.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#60

Post by ItendToDisagree »

coldtea wrote: post #39
hooande wrote: post #23

The NSA has committed no crimes. As an organization, they've acted within the bounds of the law and done exactly what they were supposed to do. This watchdog report is saying that the law is not in the interest of the people and it should be changed. But until that happens, the NSA is in the right to continue with business as usual. Our constitution prohibits ex post facto law. This means that someone can't be charge…

> The NSA has committed no crimes. As an organization, they've acted within the bounds of the law and done exactly what they were supposed to do. Even if the "acted within the bounds of the law" that would be no better than saying "the SS committed no crimes". They too, after all, acted within the bounds of the law at the time. The law is not some holy scripture, it can be criminal in itself, especially if crooks lik…

The "just following orders" excuse has been proven to be bullshit. You are right on in bringing up the SS and the Nuremberg Trials when people try to spit the 'just following orders/the law' excuse or any derivative thereof.

Not comparing the NSA to Nazis, but the excuse doesn't work, its been prosecuted many times.

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