Brand also worried that declaring that counterterrorism officials “have been operating this program unlawfully for years” could damage morale and make agencies overly cautious in taking steps to protect the country. It's great to have another voice speaking up against mass surveillance. Still -- you're telling me these agencies are in all likelihood committing crimes against the American people, but we need to be car…
They're not committing crimes against the American people. Not one American has been found who has been demonstrably harmed by any NSA program. Without harm, there no criminal act. That said, something can be unlawful without being criminal.
Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
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Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#12Earlier quoted context omitted.
They're not committing crimes against the American people. Not one American has been found who has been demonstrably harmed by any NSA program. Without harm, there no criminal act. That said, something can be unlawful without being criminal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden
How was Snowden harmed by an NSA program? He's admitted to committing a federal offense and therefore cannot return to the US or countries with an extradition treaty without appearing in federal court. That's pretty "standard" judicial proceedings, no need for NSA powers.
Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#13Brand also worried that declaring that counterterrorism officials “have been operating this program unlawfully for years” could damage morale and make agencies overly cautious in taking steps to protect the country. It's great to have another voice speaking up against mass surveillance. Still -- you're telling me these agencies are in all likelihood committing crimes against the American people, but we need to be car…
They're not committing crimes against the American people. Not one American has been found who has been demonstrably harmed by any NSA program. Without harm, there no criminal act. That said, something can be unlawful without being criminal.
> They're not committing crimes against the American people. Not one American has been found who has been demonstrably harmed by any NSA program. Without harm, there no criminal act.
Criminal acts, in general, don't require harm (some specific crimes may involve a harm as a required element, but that is not generally the case -- generally, crimes exist to prevent harm, but that does not mean a harm must be realized for a crime to occur), and, in any case, depriving the American people of the popular sovereignty by exercising the power of government inconsistent with the constraints in which it is granted by the people through the Constitution is, in and of itself, a harm.
Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#14I'm OK if they want to look at my data. I just want to know who and when they look at it and how much they are going to pay me for it. 1,000 Bitcoin gets you everything I have data-wise.
Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#15Brand also worried that declaring that counterterrorism officials “have been operating this program unlawfully for years” could damage morale and make agencies overly cautious in taking steps to protect the country. It's great to have another voice speaking up against mass surveillance. Still -- you're telling me these agencies are in all likelihood committing crimes against the American people, but we need to be car…
They're not committing crimes against the American people. Not one American has been found who has been demonstrably harmed by any NSA program. Without harm, there no criminal act. That said, something can be unlawful without being criminal.
The Palmer raids in the early 1900s arrested more than 10,000 people. Of that, 3,500 of them were held indefinitely. Almost all of them were innocent people.
In the wake of the 9/11 attacks, 1,200 Muslims were arrested. Some were beaten (this is according to the Justice Department's own Inspector General of the time). Hundreds were held for months. Absolutely none of them were found to be with al-Qaeda.
These are just two examples of MANY. You know what's scary? The spying that the NSA, FBI, and CIA do gets people put on lists. There are lists of people to arrest in the event of an attack. Hoover of the FBI had something like 70,000 people on a list during the era of Communism fear. The vast majority of those people were innocent of any crime.
Over the past century, these lists have been kept openly and kept secretly when different administrations denounced them. But they have been kept (at the FBI at least. Hoover hid them illegally). Letting the NSA spy on us and treating us as if we were assumed criminals before innocent is a terrible way to waste away your fundamental rights.
And the scary thing is we wouldn't even have known that we were being spied on for sure unless Snowden said something.
These are crimes against the American people. You can't tell me that the FISA court not rejecting any warrants is a good thing. Out of tens of thousands of requests, not one gets rejected? That is a failure of the checks and balance system our founding fathers set up. THAT is definitely a crime against the American people.
Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, it makes sense that she'd say that since she's one of the two that rejected that the program is illegal. I've been reading Tim Weiner's Enemies, a history of the FBI and one thing stuck with me. That was that there was a period of time when the FBI was incredibly useless because of a previous Supreme Court ruling that wiretapping was illegal and then FBI agents all began to misunderstand what they could and cou…
It would be wonderful if all wiretaps were ruled illegal. It would also be wonderful if all law enforcement officers were required to wear uniforms or identify themselves when in the course of their duties.
Just for a purely hypothetical scenario:
If the FBI identified an organized crime hitman who killed 20+ people and left no evidence other than making incriminating phone calls, is it wrong for them to place a tap on his phone line once they have probable cause that he is a hitman?
Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#17Brand also worried that declaring that counterterrorism officials “have been operating this program unlawfully for years” could damage morale and make agencies overly cautious in taking steps to protect the country. It's great to have another voice speaking up against mass surveillance. Still -- you're telling me these agencies are in all likelihood committing crimes against the American people, but we need to be car…
Well, it makes sense that she'd say that since she's one of the two that rejected that the program is illegal. I've been reading Tim Weiner's Enemies, a history of the FBI and one thing stuck with me. That was that there was a period of time when the FBI was incredibly useless because of a previous Supreme Court ruling that wiretapping was illegal and then FBI agents all began to misunderstand what they could and cou…
> Well, it makes sense that she'd say that since she's one of the two that rejected that the program is illegal.
Per the article, what the dissenters appeared to have done is reject the inquiry into legality as beyond the proper scope of the board's review. Its a fine distinction, to be sure, but there's a difference between a 3-2 split with three finding the program illegal and 2 finding it legal and a 3-2 split with 3 finding it illegal and 2 finding "we shouldn't be looking at legality at all".
Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#18I'd say it was cowardly and poor leadership for Obama to get this report and still half-step his speech, if not anti-democratic. There's something he won't tell us.
Somewhere there's a bunch of people thinking "at least that's all that's been leaked".
That's kind of chilling to think about.
Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
It would be wonderful if all wiretaps were ruled illegal. It would also be wonderful if all law enforcement officers were required to wear uniforms or identify themselves when in the course of their duties.
Just for a purely hypothetical scenario: If the FBI identified an organized crime hitman who killed 20+ people and left no evidence other than making incriminating phone calls, is it wrong for them to place a tap on his phone line once they have probable cause that he is a hitman?
Your hypothetical makes no sense. If they have "probable cause" before tapping his phone, that means that the "left no evidence other than incriminating phone calls" must be false.
Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#20Brand also worried that declaring that counterterrorism officials “have been operating this program unlawfully for years” could damage morale and make agencies overly cautious in taking steps to protect the country. It's great to have another voice speaking up against mass surveillance. Still -- you're telling me these agencies are in all likelihood committing crimes against the American people, but we need to be car…
They're not committing crimes against the American people. Not one American has been found who has been demonstrably harmed by any NSA program. Without harm, there no criminal act. That said, something can be unlawful without being criminal.
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