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2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

annualletter.gatesfoundation.org

141–150 of 317 posts

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#141
post #4

> There are still slums and pockets of poverty, but by and large when I visit there now I think, “Wow, most people who live here are middle-class. What a miracle.” Overall I enjoyed his letter, but I find this quote a bit deceptive. A recent photo ( http://i.imgur.com/atxDiw6.jpg ) of the poverty line in Mexico City paints a very different picture than Gates' conclusion that most people there are "middle-class." Anot…

I'm surprised he chose Mexico as an example as well, but because of the issues it has with corruption, emigration, and violence. Even a middle-class country with those problems seems like a bad example of progress.

Does Mexico still have an emmigration problem? I know that for the last few years, the USA has had net-negative immigration from Mexico, as people are moving back.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#142

I've been to Mexico City fairly recently, and I guarantee that in the right places -- possibly the same place the 1986 picture was taken -- you could take something very much like that 1986 picture today (which is perhaps even more tragic today, since its not just after the major earthquake). And I've seen Mexico City pictures just like that 2011 one, barring changes in fashion, from the 1980s. And even the 1960s. On…

I've lived in Mexico City a couple years and visited regularly since 1997. Things have changed drastically in the last seventeen years. Statistics show that they changed even faster between 1985 and 1997, but I didn't see that. The middle class has been growing at an astonishing pace. Vast swathes of Azcapotzalco, Xochimilco, and even Iztapalapa that were poor and backwards are now prosperous, clean, and exciting. Th…

> GDP per capita is misleading

that's why is better to use Purchasing Power Parity indexes, for example Mexico is 14th in Nominal GDP with 1,183B USD, but in PPP terms it is the 11th with 1,758B USD. The country as a whole has a GDP per capita PPP of 15K USD, but Mexico City has a GDP per capita PPP of 44K USD. It's a very big country with a lot of inequality between urban and rural population.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#143
post #14

His third point, "Saving lives leads to overpopulation," is a weird straw man. I've never heard of anyone ever suggesting letting suffering children die as some way to keep the population low. He brings up Malthus as another straw man. I'm not sure the point he's trying to make. To stop people from stopping people from saving people's lives? I think he's trying to suggest that the planet has too many people on it but…

> I've never heard of anyone ever suggesting letting suffering children die as some way to keep the population low

Here is someone suggesting exactly that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4372752

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I don't think this is great danger. The urge to have children is tremendously strong - it's primary purpose of our evolutionary dna, after all! Although I'm a father of two, I look around me and I see that we could probably benefit more as a society if fewer people didn't bow to that pressure to procreate. Most people that choose not to have children are doing so for very good reasons (whether it is "not…

I probably wasn't clear on what I meant by "creating an unfair bias against it in future members of society". When children grow up in a world where sex doesn't automatically mean children, it biases them towards having sex without having children, and prevents them from considering the option of children as often as they naturally would have. This violates the integrity of future generations, implicitly taking away…

That's an interesting stance that I see no evidence to support. The urge to procreate is tremendously powerful. In many cases it is even more powerful that the urge for sex, believe it or not. I think you are massively understating it.

Now, this may not seem likely when you look at those in their 20s, but it jumps out at you if you look at those in their 40s. It's so bad that it actually leads to all sorts of loveless marriages and bad situations - particularly for women worrying about "running out of time". These are first world problems though.

What the third world problems are is children being born far to soon for the parent to become established - financially, emotionally, and spiritually, if you will. This leads to less than ideal environments for children to be raised, and as a result a poorer 'end product', if you will.

You've got to remember that many third world countries do not have the options and environment we do in the first world. A "pro-contraception" message isn't needed here. When the default is switched however, and you have the procreation urge matched with little to no knowledge of contraception at all, you have a far greater negative effect than what you are concerned with.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#145
post #5

"Creating societies where people enjoy basic health, relative prosperity, fundamental equality, and access to contraceptives is the only way to secure a sustainable world." I suppose I'm one of the 0% (rounded) who disagree with putting contraception in this list. When this gets thrown around, it makes me feel like an outsider in a programming community where I otherwise agree with probably everything else.

Serious question: are you a parent?

I have two (planned, lovely, adorable, whatever) children and while I adore them and am proud of what I'm doing, raising kids well (or at least as well as I'm able) is hard. Very hard. I mean, it's so hard that the very idea of compelling other people to do it when they haven't chosen to seems extremely immoral.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#146

The United States' news coverage concerning Africa perpetuates these myths. It seems as if 95% of news stories focus on poverty, war and chaos in the continent. They rarely go so far as to differentiate among countries. In fact, many African nations are great centers for innovation. Kenya and Nigeria spring to mind for higher education and mobile computing. As a way of confronting condescending stereotypes, I have of…

they aren't really myths. This is just ignoring the cause twice... so it seems right. remember, they 'sell' aid.

what happens is, country A explores country B. country B is now in misery. Country A now gives out aid, while continuing to explore. Country A is still making country B miserable, but now feeling good about it.

...And this institution, in exchange for tax breaks, have to sell you the idea that the last step is not bad. While blatantly ignoring that the cause is the first step.

Of course Aid is not bad. What is bad is that it is at that point to begin with. And we all know that giving out handouts is necessary, but hardly the solution to the problem they advertise.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bill Gates is not saying that everywhere in Mexico City is like the picture on the right. "There are still slums and pockets of poverty, but by and large when I visit there now I think, “Wow, most people who live here are middle-class. What a miracle.”" Sadly, I don't understand what you are saying in your second paragraph. I don't see how your criticism refutes Myth 1 "Poor Countries are Doomed to Stay Poor"? Take a…

> I don't see how your criticism refutes Myth 1 I'm not refuting that the myth is a myth (though I think its more of a strawman that Gates attacks poorly than a myth), I'm pointing out that Gates particular attempt to argue from so-called "income per person" trends (that starts with mistreating GDP per capita as "income per person") line of argument against the "myth" is fundamentally flawed. I don't think poor count…

Another issue with GDP is that it increases as an artifact of marketization, independently of changes to efficiency or standard of living produced by marketization. If two people each cut their own lawn, this contributes $0 to GDP. If they swap so that each mows the other person's lawn for $5, GDP goes up! If they each hire the other person as childcare to watch their own kids while cutting the other person's lawn, GDP goes up even more! This is because GDP does not include non-paid productive work, so simply making it paid increases GDP (even if actual production goes down).

Some of these shifts might improve welfare, but GDP increases regardless of whether they do or not, just by putting dollar figures on existing activity. A government really wanting to artificially boost GDP could give it a big boost by mandating that each parent take care of a different parent's kids for N days a week instead of their own, at a government-fixed rate of pay. The payments in each direction net out, childcare probably does not improve, and GDP goes up.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a sound argument, and I agree with it, but I'm having trouble linking that to contraception. You and I are both a result of chance. To the level that your grandparents decided to have sex at 7PM instead of 7AM, and that your grandmother didn't shift to the right afterwards, allowing a different sperm to be "the fastest". Is our existence a denial of the person that would have been created had the other fact oc…

"but I'm having trouble linking that to contraception." "Conversely, suggesting contraception is squandering our human capital is not much different than suggesting abstinence is." Artificially disconnecting sex from children increases the bias in future generations against having children. I explained it better elsewhere in this thread. Abstinence doesn't cause this artificial disconnect.

> the bias in future generations against having children

You need to provide something that suggests this bias is prevalent in any society at all.

There is a bias against having many children (i.e. 2+), sure. I'm not seeing anything at all suggesting there is a prevalent bias against having any children at all, nor that one will develop over time.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#149
It's an excellent piece. I'll admit to being a bit confused by the assertion, however:

> "letting children die now so they don’t starve later—doesn’t actually work, thank goodness. It may be counterintuitive, but the countries with the most deaths have among the fastest-growing populations in the world. This is because the women in these countries tend to have the most births, too."

I spent five months in Kenya, and a couple weeks with the Samburu tribe during a drought. All their animals were dead, piled up, because there were no more leaves to eat. We were driving a caravan of food to distribute in the region, since otherwise the people would have been next. And the dilemma was explained to me clearly: we can't just let people die. But it means we have to send food aid all the time now, unlike decades ago, because the population is simply larger than the land can support, except in its best years, and it makes the people essentially permanently dependent on outside aid.

So I'll admit to being stumped by what Melinda Gates means when she says that overpopulation isn't the result of aid. Simply asserting that "countries with the most deaths have among the fastest-growing populations in the world" doesn't explain anything -- it's just a correlation, and might very well be due to the fact that such countries already receive the most food aid, for example.

I'm certainly not arguing that I am against, or that anyone should be against, food aid. But I am utterly unconvinced by Melissa Gates saying that "saving lives leads to overpopulation" is a myth -- she doesn't substantiate it, and it seems like the weakest part of the whole post. It all depends on how you define overpopulation, but I just don't see it yet. Of course, rising income and education lowers birth rates in the future, but that doesn't change the simple fact that, at low levels of income and education, more food aid directly results in more people, which is often more than traditional local practices and agriculture can reliably and sustainably support.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#150
post #99

> It is ironic that the foundation has a reputation for a hard-nosed focus on results, and yet many people are cynical about the government aid programs we partner with. The foundation does a lot to help these programs be more efficient and measure their progress. It's not ironic. Some people value government charity spending less than they value private nonprofit spending. Gates implicitly acknowledges that governme…

> there are also principled concerns about using tax dollars for aid projects Are you using the typical "let the church handle it logic" not specifically religious entities, but that if the government didn't waste money on aid then people would make up the difference? Because if that is what you are saying it is based on the flawed logic that aid is a zero sum thing. It is certainly not at this point. I can guarantee…

I didn't say those things. I was saying that it's not ironic and pushing back against a particular straw man in the letter.

1. Government aid has its problems.

The fact that the Gates Foundation helps government programs implies that private organizations execute better, at least in some aspects. Gates later admits that government aid has its problems, so it's odd that he dismisses objections in this way.

2. Philosophical objections should be acknowledged and addressed.

At another point in the letter, Gates hypothetically asked, "Imagine that the income tax form asked, 'Can we use $30 of the taxes you’re already paying to protect 120 children from measles?' Would you check yes or no?"

Many people would have no problem with that arrangement but do have a problem with not-optional line items in the federal budget. The point is that right now donations are enforced by the IRS, which is an odd form of charity, and I think it's reasonable (and certainly not ironic) to have philosophical problems with that and to prefer more democratic forms of aid.

Perhaps the benefits are worth overruling the drawbacks (point 1) and philosophical objections (point 2), but calling reservations about government aid ironic is either sloppy or disingenuous.

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