2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor • Hacker News Board

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#61

Post by run4_too » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:12 PM UTC

abraininavat wrote: post #53

sdegutis wrote: post #5

"Creating societies where people enjoy basic health, relative prosperity, fundamental equality, and access to contraceptives is the only way to secure a sustainable world." I suppose I'm one of the 0% (rounded) who disagree with putting contraception in this list. When this gets thrown around, it makes me feel like an outsider in a programming community where I otherwise agree with probably everything else.

This person is trolling by getting people to argue with a position that he or she doesn't even put forth. Don't fall for it -- ignore people who say things and refuse to back them up.

I think it's more likely the person is being honest. I think the positive move would be to encourage him/her to express their rational and provide an example of how HN accepts different conclusions provided there is a logical process in creating those conclusions.

What you are doing is providing example to buttress op's point as being correct. Best to leave that attitude on reddit.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#62

Post by moocowduckquack » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:14 PM UTC

sdegutis wrote: post #24

zeidrich wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Access to contraceptives allows people who do not intend to have children, but engage in sex, to remain childless. No access to contraceptives means that people who do not intend to have children, but engage in sex, will have children. These children will be unintended or unwanted and may not be cared for either through disinterest or lack of ability to provide for them. A child who grows up in that sort of circumsta…

My line of reasoning behind my position is complex and can't be simplified into a bite-sized form that can be defended in a HN thread. Especially considering my original point: I'm one of the 0%; there's no chance for a fair debate.

There certainly isn't if you make a statement and then refuse to say why you made it. People discuss complex stuff on HN regularly, surely the complexity of the argument cannot be higher than exists in some of the maths threads.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#63

Post by philwelch » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:14 PM UTC

sdegutis wrote: post #24

zeidrich wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Access to contraceptives allows people who do not intend to have children, but engage in sex, to remain childless. No access to contraceptives means that people who do not intend to have children, but engage in sex, will have children. These children will be unintended or unwanted and may not be cared for either through disinterest or lack of ability to provide for them. A child who grows up in that sort of circumsta…

My line of reasoning behind my position is complex and can't be simplified into a bite-sized form that can be defended in a HN thread. Especially considering my original point: I'm one of the 0%; there's no chance for a fair debate.

Then why did you even bring it up? Are you trolling?

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#64

Post by agarwlGaurav » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:14 PM UTC

Yesterday I read the Oxfam report that 85 people own half of the world's wealth. http://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressrelease/2014-01-20/ri...

Now this is amazing and simple fact. This shows we have completely failed at distribution of wealth. If we could fix this many many problem will vanish. Now instead of what Gates has written this extreme inequality is blocking the progress of poor.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#65

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:15 PM UTC

run4_too wrote: post #56

sdegutis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't. Not because I don't have legit reasoning (I'm convinced I do). But for a far more interesting reason: I'm one of the 0% in this community who hold this position. This means there's no chance for a fair debate. Socially speaking, I think this is far more interesting than my disagreement itself. EDIT: Ignore this, I have already responded. See the rest of the thread.

>I can't. This belittles your argument in a way nobody else could even approach. When someone asks you why you have come to a conclusion, they are looking to understand you. That is automatically counter to your assertion that there "is no chance for a fair debate". More people disagreeing with you than agreeing with you is not the measurement of the validity of your opinion. There are many things that I believe that…

[deleted]

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#66

Post by macspoofing » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:18 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #54

macspoofing wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I suppose I'm one of the 0% (rounded) who disagree with putting contraception in this list. That's because access to contraceptives has been shown to provide a wide range of benefits. From reducing poverty, prevention of STDs, increasing maternal health (from unsafe abortions, and increasing inter-pregnancy interval), reinforcing women's rights and allowing for proper family planning. >When this gets thrown around,…

> The only objections to contraceptive access are religious in nature, and we can safely discard those. I think this is pretty much his (her?) point. You've basically said that no matter what the point is, it's either not cogent or not valid.

Sometimes things are arguable and debatable, and sometimes the evidence is stacked on one-side so much that a contrary position is irrational.

Contraceptive access is a cornerstone of health policy in every developed nation. It has been endorsed by WHO and every study done has implicitly or explicitly has supported this position. What are the odds sdegutis has a good reason to object?

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#67

Post by beachstartup » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:18 PM UTC

acconrad wrote: post #4

> There are still slums and pockets of poverty, but by and large when I visit there now I think, “Wow, most people who live here are middle-class. What a miracle.” Overall I enjoyed his letter, but I find this quote a bit deceptive. A recent photo ( http://i.imgur.com/atxDiw6.jpg ) of the poverty line in Mexico City paints a very different picture than Gates' conclusion that most people there are "middle-class." Anot…

1. the photo you provided shows far more middle-class high rise dwellings than the low-lying tenament slums.

2. he was talking specifically about mexico city, not mexico as a whole.

the point is real, tangible progress is obviously being made, and that the work needs to continue. it's not "hopeless".

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#68

Post by akamaka » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:22 PM UTC

spodek wrote: post #14

His third point, "Saving lives leads to overpopulation," is a weird straw man. I've never heard of anyone ever suggesting letting suffering children die as some way to keep the population low. He brings up Malthus as another straw man. I'm not sure the point he's trying to make. To stop people from stopping people from saving people's lives? I think he's trying to suggest that the planet has too many people on it but…

It's not a straw man. This is a common question that people have, but you may not have heard it voiced publicly, because people are worried about saying it out loud. Here's a perfect example:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/?qid=20081006164746AADzo4l

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#69

Post by localhost » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:23 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #11

I've been to Mexico City fairly recently, and I guarantee that in the right places -- possibly the same place the 1986 picture was taken -- you could take something very much like that 1986 picture today (which is perhaps even more tragic today, since its not just after the major earthquake). And I've seen Mexico City pictures just like that 2011 one, barring changes in fashion, from the 1980s. And even the 1960s. On…

Bill Gates is not saying that everywhere in Mexico City is like the picture on the right.

"There are still slums and pockets of poverty, but by and large when I visit there now I think, “Wow, most people who live here are middle-class. What a miracle.”"

Sadly, I don't understand what you are saying in your second paragraph. I don't see how your criticism refutes Myth 1 "Poor Countries are Doomed to Stay Poor"? Take a metric, look at it over time. Watch it change. That's exactly what Bill Gates did in his piece.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#70

Post by abraininavat » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:23 PM UTC

run4_too wrote: post #61

abraininavat wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This person is trolling by getting people to argue with a position that he or she doesn't even put forth. Don't fall for it -- ignore people who say things and refuse to back them up.

I think it's more likely the person is being honest. I think the positive move would be to encourage him/her to express their rational and provide an example of how HN accepts different conclusions provided there is a logical process in creating those conclusions. What you are doing is providing example to buttress op's point as being correct. Best to leave that attitude on reddit.

Best to leave that attitude on reddit

You disagree with my interpretation of this thread, fine. You might be right, great! The "best leave that attitude on reddit" comment is childish and does more to lower the quality of the conversation than my call to ignore unexplained (not even irrational) points. Grow up.