Wozniak: “Actually, the movie was largely a lie about me” • Hacker News Board

Re: Wozniak: “Actually, the movie was largely a lie about me”

#171

Post by hboon » Mon, Jan 20, 2014, 1:32 PM UTC

ghshephard wrote: post #159

wirrbel wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs is a designer. Using existing pieces to create a good product. While this is an important skill to have, it is nothing I would idolize someone for, moreover, Jobs only was capable of focussing on design because countless Wozniaks did the plumbing (and really awesome hacking). This is _division of labor_. You just cannot build products alone. While Jobs did his job, he certainly was arrogant and a few times too o…

Anybody who worked anywhere near Jobs will observe he was one of the biggest assholes around. I know quite a few people who worked in, or near his sphere - and they are all pretty consistent on this point. And yet, who else in modern history has driven as many companies to such such success, and lead the creation of so many great products? We had a ton of the NeXT machines at my university, and I still believe they,…

I mostly agree, but just one nit: Pixar was mostly John Lasseter, Ed Catmull, and many wonderful folks including many animators. While Jobs personally funded the company for a long time (10 years or so? That's really quite a vision), he wasn't really running it.

Re: Wozniak: “Actually, the movie was largely a lie about me”

#172

Post by gnaffle » Mon, Jan 20, 2014, 1:39 PM UTC

kabouseng wrote: post #165

gnaffle wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did he say that?

I'll have to go search for a link. But it was during the keynote unveiling of the original iPhone if I remember correctly, where actually two of the engineers came to him to demonstrate the capacitive touch screens or panels that were only just beginning to receive main stream attention.

I've watched that keynote, and it certainly wasn't there. While Jobs had a tendency to claim ideas as his own internally (often after dismissing it initially), to the public he never seemed to like to claim ideas as his own, but rather make a point of how the products were a result of teamwork.

Re: Wozniak: “Actually, the movie was largely a lie about me”

#173

Post by hahainternet » Mon, Jan 20, 2014, 1:39 PM UTC

ghshephard wrote: post #159

wirrbel wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs is a designer. Using existing pieces to create a good product. While this is an important skill to have, it is nothing I would idolize someone for, moreover, Jobs only was capable of focussing on design because countless Wozniaks did the plumbing (and really awesome hacking). This is _division of labor_. You just cannot build products alone. While Jobs did his job, he certainly was arrogant and a few times too o…

Anybody who worked anywhere near Jobs will observe he was one of the biggest assholes around. I know quite a few people who worked in, or near his sphere - and they are all pretty consistent on this point. And yet, who else in modern history has driven as many companies to such such success, and lead the creation of so many great products? We had a ton of the NeXT machines at my university, and I still believe they,…

> But Geniuses/Leaders - they come but once in a lifetime, and we admire them for that uniqueness.

Oh please. There are 7 billion people in this world. This hero worship has got to stop. By your own admission he was a complete arsehole. His 'vision' was who he could exploit. Look at how he treated Woz. That's not the actions of a visionary, that's the actions of an egomaniac who discovered a route to power.

Re: Wozniak: “Actually, the movie was largely a lie about me”

#174

Post by precisioncoder » Mon, Jan 20, 2014, 1:42 PM UTC

larrys wrote: post #107

tomasien wrote: post #100

I hate the "Great Man" theory of history. It misses everything. Hitler was responsible for NAZIsm in Germany lets SO many people off the hook (including people in the US, UK, etc.) and "Jobs made Apple" takes credit away from so many others who not only deserve it, but in aggregate deserve ALL of it. I'm a Jobs fan in many - but a fan of what he actually did (minus being a douche), not the myth.

Agree. One thing missing from Wozniak's comment is that in the end Jobs did whatever he had to and created great products that many of us use. Woz doesn't seem to want to acknowledge the fact that creating great things in life or in business involves stepping on some toes and doing all sorts of shenanigans. Woz certainly didn't have the stomach to be Jobs but Jobs did. And with that you get credit perhaps you don't d…

From the article: " I was an engineer at HP designing the iPhone 5 of the time, their scientific calculators. I had many friends and a good reputation there. I designed things for people all over the country, for fun, all the time too, including the first hotel movie systems and SMPTE time code readers for the commercial video world. Also home pinball games. Among these things, the Apple I was the FIFTH time that something I had created (not built from someone else's schematic) was turned into money by Jobs." It seems that regardless of whether he had met Jobs or not he would have been a tech superstar, rich, and quite probably part of something great.

Re: Wozniak: “Actually, the movie was largely a lie about me”

#175

Post by VLM » Mon, Jan 20, 2014, 1:48 PM UTC

wirrbel wrote: post #138

abalone wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs was more than a "shrewd businessman". Building Pixar over 10 years into one of the top movie studios was not some "shrewd" business decision. Ditto for NeXT, the early Mac, the iPod, the iPhone, the iPad.. It's more accurate to say he was a visionary who took a long term view. It's only in retrospect that we have the luxury of looking on his track record as smart from a business standpoint. Woz even criticizes t…

Jobs is a designer. Using existing pieces to create a good product. While this is an important skill to have, it is nothing I would idolize someone for, moreover, Jobs only was capable of focussing on design because countless Wozniaks did the plumbing (and really awesome hacking). This is _division of labor_. You just cannot build products alone. While Jobs did his job, he certainly was arrogant and a few times too o…

"Jobs only was capable of focussing on design because countless Wozniaks did the plumbing"

As an EE-type dude Woz's design work was pretty impressive. He's in no danger of being worshipped like a Williams, Pease, or Widlar (much less a Tesla) but he's at most only one tier down. Lets say he's in the top ten, or in serious competition to be in that class. Multiple independent people repeatedly come up with the phrase "elegant" to describe his electrical design work.

So calling a highly skilled stuffed suit the designer and the guy who did all the good design work a mere plumber is somewhat historically revisionist. For that matter I don't think either of them would have gotten as far as they did without teaming up, so other than some desire to dominate, there's not much point in placing one higher than the other.

What it is, is a highly effective social commentary. A genius grade stuffed suit gets all the credit. A genius grade designer is a mere plumber to be used as a resource by the really important person, that being the stuffed suit. In other words, it sucks.

Re: Wozniak: “Actually, the movie was largely a lie about me”

#176

Post by tomelders » Mon, Jan 20, 2014, 1:51 PM UTC

bliss wrote: post #162

tomelders wrote: post #52

I thought Ashton Kutcher was robbed of a career defining performance by a director and a writer who didn't give a shit about anything.

His career is already defined, take it you've not seen "Dude, Where's My Car?"

By far the greatest adaptation of A Comedy of Errors ever committed to film.

Re: Wozniak: “Actually, the movie was largely a lie about me”

#177

Post by coldpie » Mon, Jan 20, 2014, 1:57 PM UTC

wwweston wrote: post #98

jpmattia wrote: post #64

> Woz: And when Jobs (in the movie, but really a board does this) denied stock to the early garage team (some not even shown) I'm surprised that they chose not to show me giving about $10M of my own stock to them because it was the right thing. And $10M was a lot in that time. I have to say: That speaks volumes. And Woz, if you ever happen to read this: It's still a pile of dough in the year 2014.

If I remember correctly (haven't seen it since 1999), _Pirates of Silicon Valley_ has a scene depicting Woz discussing this with Jobs, stating he's going to do it because it's the right thing.

I have seen this movie so many times I can nearly quote the whole thing. Definitely worth watching if you haven't seen it before.

Re: Wozniak: “Actually, the movie was largely a lie about me”

#178

Post by atmosx » Mon, Jan 20, 2014, 1:57 PM UTC

corin_ wrote: post #168

SimHacker wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget Bezos. My friend who was an early Amazon employee who worked down the hall from him tells me Bezos is a fucking psychopath.

Worth keeping in mind that the nicest people will still have a few people who hate them, and the worst people will still have a few people who love them - whether they're top CEOs or just anyone in life. That said your friend's opinion may well be in the majority, I've no idea.

Yes, but when someone is a nice guy - like Wozniak - there are always around him people who will let us know how nice he was ... as with Woz. No one ever pictured Wozniak as an egomaniac workaholic, although his skill-set was (apparently) extremely above the average programmer at the time and an ego-centric behavior would (probably) be acceptable by him also.. Since he was the one who crated Apple 1 and ][ after all :-)

Re: Wozniak: “Actually, the movie was largely a lie about me”

#179

Post by hyp0 » Mon, Jan 20, 2014, 2:01 PM UTC

abalone wrote: post #123

sliverstorm wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered more about Woz than Jobs! We get plenty of shrewd businessmen; they aren't a dime-a-dozen, but they aren't an enigma either. Kind of an understood phenomenon. People like Woz (at least based on the myriad recountings; I have not met the man) seem to actually be rare. I wonder if there was an interesting aspect to his youth, or what. Maybe the same way that you can have a psychopath, you can have…

Jobs was more than a "shrewd businessman". Building Pixar over 10 years into one of the top movie studios was not some "shrewd" business decision. Ditto for NeXT, the early Mac, the iPod, the iPhone, the iPad.. It's more accurate to say he was a visionary who took a long term view. It's only in retrospect that we have the luxury of looking on his track record as smart from a business standpoint. Woz even criticizes t…

Ed Catmull said the best thing Jobs did for Pixar was stay out of the way. Literally, not interfering and instead letting Catmull and Lasseter get on with it; yet providing support when needed (via introductions and so one). He was more VC than founder.

Re: Wozniak: “Actually, the movie was largely a lie about me”

#180

Post by ghshephard » Mon, Jan 20, 2014, 2:24 PM UTC

hboon wrote: post #171

ghshephard wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anybody who worked anywhere near Jobs will observe he was one of the biggest assholes around. I know quite a few people who worked in, or near his sphere - and they are all pretty consistent on this point. And yet, who else in modern history has driven as many companies to such such success, and lead the creation of so many great products? We had a ton of the NeXT machines at my university, and I still believe they,…

I mostly agree, but just one nit: Pixar was mostly John Lasseter, Ed Catmull, and many wonderful folks including many animators. While Jobs personally funded the company for a long time (10 years or so? That's really quite a vision), he wasn't really running it.

I've spent a few hours reading the history of Pixar (it's controversial as to what role Jobs had, particularly around the "founding" - which he really wasn't) - and while I've come to the conclusion that Steve Jobs had very little (if any) role in actually running Pixar, he appears to have had some "catalyzing" effect - Issacson never really dived into that aspect of Job's personality - it might be his negotiating skill (which was epic), or his reality distortion field (which I think even Jobs fell under the influence of) - but from the very start of Apple, he just believed in a series of realities, and did whatever he could to change things so they came true.

Now, he didn't always win (most memorably in his ejection from Apple by the board), and sometimes this egomania had catastrophic effects - from his personal life, and most likely to his own health, where he refused to accept other people's opinion of what the best course of action was. You can argue and shape some people minds, but ultimately you can't win an argument with nature.

It may very well have been the case, that without the bad, there could never have been the good - they were inexorably linked.