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How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

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Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#101

Post by ohyes »

mb_72 wrote: post #70
ohyes wrote: post #22

It's called an exit interview. Once you secure a new job, don't be shy with your managers about why you are leaving.

I would be wary about being completely open and honest about such things at exit interviews. There is nothing to gain for the ex-employee personally at that point in time, and everything to lose by 'burning bridges'. You never know when a few criticisms (even if they are accurate and correct) will come back to haunt you. At the exit interview, the main thing is to do what is best for yourself. If you really want to c…

This is totally right, you absolutely want to sugar coat it. Don't say "I'm leaving because I hate bill". But for everyone else's benefit you can drop in that this new place you're working for gives you the flexible hours you require and is paying you more money.

The point was more, "if you're unhappy, find something new." You don't owe anyone anything, and if they can't figure out how to incentivize you into staying, you shouldn't. It sounds like old manager had a good grip on it and new manager does not, in this particular case.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#102

Post by ohyes »

allochthon wrote: post #34
ohyes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reality, if he can get a 30% pay raise elsewhere, he should take it. It's not about punishing anyone, it's about compensation. Part of his compensation is flexible work hours. Another part is money/benefits. If his manager came in and said 'we're going to pay you 12-24% less for your time' it would be just as much of an issue.

It's not about punishing anyone, it's about compensation. Not so. Compensation is important if funding is available, but many devs love what they do and the service they're providing, beyond monetary compensation.

I like what I do too, but I'm not some ephemeral being, I have material needs. Anyway, It's always about compensation, environment and camaraderie is part of compensation.

If it weren't about compensation I would work on my own stuff or open source.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#103

Post by Iftheshoefits »

ansgri wrote: post #36
allochthon wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about punishing anyone, it's about compensation. Not so. Compensation is important if funding is available, but many devs love what they do and the service they're providing, beyond monetary compensation.

Indeed, it's called 'compensation' for a reason: it compensates for the time spent doing what you'd prefer not to. If you do what you love, nothing to compensate for :)

Bluntly, that attitude is incredibly naive and, in the extreme, obsequious.

I have a passion for doing a great many things. I believe I should be compensated for expending time--literally quantums of my very life--if employed in the service of another. These two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#104

Post by gte910h »

lazyjones wrote: post #20
d0m wrote: post #4

I think explaining that "Most senors developers can leave and get another job with a 30-40% higher pay" and that "most current developers stay because of the flexible time and casual environment" is a very strong point. I would try to understand a bit more the concern about the forced 8 hours a day at the office. But obviously, if the manager is just dumb, just go to higher authority and explain that this manager cou…

> "Most senors developers can leave and get another job with a 30-40% higher pay" and that "most current developers stay because of the flexible time and casual environment" is a very strong point. One of the worst things a developer can do is to underperform on purpose because of thoughts like the above ("I could get a better job elsewhere, so I don't need to put in any effort here"). It leads to the worst possible…

I completely disagree. Casual, unrushed work and lower hour weeks are absolutely a feature to hire qualified, but otherwise busy employees. Parents especially go for these sorts of roles.

He's not complaining about effort, but hours

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#105

Post by gte910h »

ohyes wrote: post #22

It's called an exit interview. Once you secure a new job, don't be shy with your managers about why you are leaving.

Exit interviews should almost always be softballed and waffled. Almost nothing is gained by frankness and honesty

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#106

Post by gte910h »

codingdave wrote: post #40

For those younger folk who ask why older management feels that the younger generation is full of entitlement - this scenario is exactly why. The young engineer feels that they are a gift to their employer, and should have the freedom to work as they want. The older manager feels that the work environment has a structure inherent within it, to which people are expected to comply. As the engineer, it is your right to q…

> As the engineer, it is your right to quit if you don't want to play by the rules.

Or, it's their right to say "no" (or just ignore the rule he's concluded is bad) and have a power struggle. Which is what I expect may happen at this company (not advising it, but what may happen). Or have an adult discussion about it

The new manager may not politically have a chance in hell of being able to fire the guy. Or he may replace him easily and fire him. Or realize he really is trying to cut everyone's pay approximately 15% and back off.

There are lots of ways this could happen.

That said, I do agree with you, moving on often has the smallest amount of conflict. Very possibly what the guy should do.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#107

Post by QuantumGood »

tlogan wrote: post #94
jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

The top-level answer is all the fluff without the substance. It is just nicely written. The real answer should basically say that you need to start negotiating. Of course you need to be nice and civil (read Dale Carnegie's book) but also understand that you don't need to liked by some people. For negotiating there are many books. But the point is basically very simple: 1) figure out what you really care about, 2) lea…

The top-level answer is focused on what you call steps 2-4. You have a wider, better frame of reference, but some of their focus is appropriate too.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#108

Post by QuantumGood »

kabdib wrote: post #98

Go over the manager's head. If that company is having trouble keeping senior staff, there are reasons for it and those reasons are probably not secret. I've done this, with mixed success, but have never had a problem with retaliation. You might be surprised how welcome your skip-level feedback is. Oh, and if your skip-level manager doesn't know who you are (and ideally, his manager), then you either need to work on v…

Beyond the straightforward good sense of this, it's a negotiation, and you should "talk to all the players on the opposing party's team" as you gather information.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#109

Post by QuantumGood »

ohyes wrote: post #101
mb_72 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be wary about being completely open and honest about such things at exit interviews. There is nothing to gain for the ex-employee personally at that point in time, and everything to lose by 'burning bridges'. You never know when a few criticisms (even if they are accurate and correct) will come back to haunt you. At the exit interview, the main thing is to do what is best for yourself. If you really want to c…

This is totally right, you absolutely want to sugar coat it. Don't say "I'm leaving because I hate bill". But for everyone else's benefit you can drop in that this new place you're working for gives you the flexible hours you require and is paying you more money. The point was more, "if you're unhappy, find something new." You don't owe anyone anything, and if they can't figure out how to incentivize you into staying…

Yup, important communication is often best when informal. For forms, official interviews and the like, carefully protect your goals. But be creative in considering how you can educate the other party.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#110

Post by QuantumGood »

systematical wrote: post #21

If where I was working began to micro-manage me then I'd leave. I left my last job because of this. It was so bad that they said I could only take breaks every 2 hours and had to wear a tie. I left for a company that matched my values and gladly took a pay cut doing so. Freedom is worth more than money. Kindly and professionally let them know why you left in your exit interview.

You can increase freedom/satisfaction by decreasing the things that you feel threaten it.

This is especially true in relationships, sometimes expressed as "don't sweat the small stuff—and it's all small stuff."

In evaluating a job or relationship, one technique is to make a pros and cons list, and put things that are easiest to adjust your attitudes on (like wearing a tie) in a third list to try to see the true value proposition.

Otherwise one risk is that you'll assume minor things may represent a "cultural/attitude problem" that doesn't really exist beyond a few easy-to-accept things, such as wearing a tie, taking out the garbage on a schedule, etc.

Of course, if the value proposition doesn't satisfy you, then you're in the wrong place. But if it does, keep your attention on the good things about the relationship as you practice "not sweating the small stuff."

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