If where I was working began to micro-manage me then I'd leave. I left my last job because of this. It was so bad that they said I could only take breaks every 2 hours and had to wear a tie. I left for a company that matched my values and gladly took a pay cut doing so. Freedom is worth more than money. Kindly and professionally let them know why you left in your exit interview.
How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?
21–30 of 123 posts
Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?
#22It's called an exit interview. Once you secure a new job, don't be shy with your managers about why you are leaving.
Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?
#23Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?
#24I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…
I didn't personally find it very mature. It's just somebody parroting "How To Win Friends" with an authoritative spin. I found it manipulative and warped.
This guy isn't happy with being told what to do. A conversation is very unlikely to sort this out.
I don't think leaving is about "punishing the manager." This job will be more appropriate for somebody else, and this company will probably be better off with somebody happy working in the new environment. It's not about mediocrity - it's about people sharing similar values and being happy with their working situation. That's very important and when people believe completely different things and don't have mutual respect for each other, it's very hard to find some kind of meaningful compromise.
Edit: I say what I've said not because I'm an armchair cowboy (thanks), but because I've tried the other approach before. It's better to find people elsewhere that share your philosophy, than to try to convert people. (Converting people feels egotistical to me. We all love our own opinions but who is to say that they are best for our neighbours? I certainly don't want to be the one arguing this - it is such a grey line and so easy to accidentally antagonise somebody.)
Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?
#25What a bunch of spoiled, whining brats! Sure, you can only code for 4-6 hours a day, but why not honor your contract by spending that other 2 hours mentoring less senior people, trying to understand your employer's business goals, and generally trying to do your best to move your company ahead. Sheesh. By the way, the sheer arrogance of the question "How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege…
[deleted]
Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?
#26By not continuing to work under managers that are shitty.
Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?
#27I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…
In reality, if he can get a 30% pay raise elsewhere, he should take it. It's not about punishing anyone, it's about compensation. Part of his compensation is flexible work hours. Another part is money/benefits. If his manager came in and said 'we're going to pay you 12-24% less for your time' it would be just as much of an issue.
Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?
#28I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…
I think the guide to having a mature discussion is a very good one. I also think it isn't going to work with this kind of manager. If the "mature discussion" is not handled properly it might end up with the manager looking to fire the employee before they find a new job.
The safe thing is surely to just start looking for a new job.
Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?
#29That manager is bad at their job, or has a different set of values than the developer who's asking the question. In either case, this is a recipe for a bad relationship.
As a manager, I consider my biggest responsibility to be creating and maintain an environment and structure where the developers that work in it (and report to me) are happy, productive, trusting, and engaged. Anything else I'm responsible for doing - like, say, delivering software - can't happen in a sustainable and predictable way without my being good at that first thing. Being a good software manager - or any manager really, but I've got less experience outside of of the software realm - is about people first and whatever-you-do second, and it sounds like this manager has forgotten and/or missed that.
What do you do in this situation? Make preparations to quit (which is distinct from actually quitting, but it can lead to that). If you have a decent network - and if you're good enough to get a 40% raise on moving jobs, you should - go talk to a few people at other companies you admire. If you've know any recruiters you trust, talk to them. Get a feeling for what the market will actually pay for your skills. Spend some time working though a good answer to "why do you want to leave your current job and come here," which force you to clearly work out what it is that you don't like in your current job (and if moving jobs will fix that).
Once you've done all that and still want to leave, go to your old manager (and their manager) with a job offer in hand, and tell them you want a 20% raise and the following four things to change in this specific way, pulling no punches. If they hesitate, put in your notice there and there. If they accept immediately, book another meeting for a month hence with both of them to re-evaluate how fixing those issues are going, and go back to your job.
If you're in this position, like Toronto, and can give a brief discourse off the top of your head about when it is and isn't appropriate to use a metaclass in Python, respond to this and let's talk.