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How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

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Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#81

Post by RogerL »

ansgri wrote: post #41
allochthon wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

generally espousing a naive us-versus-them attitude. It is nearly impossible to avoid this kind of attitude when managers see themselves in a shaping rather than supporting/facilitating role. I've seen good teams given a new, inexperienced manager who sees his job as turning certain knobs and "incenting" certain behaviors and outcomes, and it ends exactly like you think it would. The good devs leave, and the team is…

OTOH, when it's time to move from research into production, this 'shaping' rather works: those 'good devs' with poor respect for authority move out of the team (either from the company or deeper back into R&D), where people who stay / newly hired readily agree to fulfill well-defined roles.

What "authority"?

Different people have different roles. If I know tons about implementing caches, I probably end up making most of the decisions about that sort of thing. If you know a lot about scheduling projects, probably you'll end up doing a lot of that. A junior person probably won't get to make a lot of decisions, except in whatever rather small area they are contributing in. And so on. Management doesn't mean you are an authority, it just means you have different responsibilities (and I manage as well as develop, I don't write this solely as a developer).

We can all come up with counterexamples to the above. What if someone is not pulling their weight? What if a group decides to drink (heavily) at the job? And so on. Sure, at some point somebody needs to make decisions about hire/fire/probation, and so on, but the hope and desire is to build a team that self directs itself in as much as that is possible.

I don't know, the whole 'authority' thing comes off as weird to me.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#82

Post by shearnie »

thothamon wrote: post #50
allochthon wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

generally espousing a naive us-versus-them attitude. It is nearly impossible to avoid this kind of attitude when managers see themselves in a shaping rather than supporting/facilitating role. I've seen good teams given a new, inexperienced manager who sees his job as turning certain knobs and "incenting" certain behaviors and outcomes, and it ends exactly like you think it would. The good devs leave, and the team is…

I'm not sure what you mean. All managers are paid to ensure better outcomes, where "better" is defined by the company (not by the engineers, except insofar as this enables the company's goals). Some managers are more effective at this, and some less. As a manager, sometimes it's better to have a cohesive team with consistent rules, even if some engineers will opt to work elsewhere as a result. Although I am sympathet…

I suppose "manager" is industrial aged thinking for a company with that particular culture. Good developers are self managing and self actualised and self motivated I believe. Support/facilitate is an apt role for someone to massage the backlog and keep accountability with stakeholders.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#83

Post by walshemj »

mikeash wrote: post #53
lhnz wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't personally find it very mature. It's just somebody parroting "How To Win Friends" with an authoritative spin. I found it manipulative and warped. This guy isn't happy with being told what to do. A conversation is very unlikely to sort this out. I don't think leaving is about "punishing the manager." This job will be more appropriate for somebody else, and this company will probably be better off with somebod…

The top-voted answer is a great example of how much wording matters. It sounds very mature and reasonable, compared to the off-the-cuff and coarse answers given in the comments here. But when you actually look at what it says, it's basically "roll over". The best outcome envisioned in that response is, "If he compromises and lets you have a bit of flexibility". First, take a moment to appreciate that *lets you have"…

Hhat one of the problems with workplace I have seen 2000 odd words of wafflely answer that does not address the question asked - get voted up.

A lot of the users also will jump in with completely pointless anecdotes about employment law as it applies in some country but the question is obviously about a different one (hint at will has no meaning outside of the UK).

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#84

Post by DavidWoof »

lhnz wrote: post #24
jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

I didn't personally find it very mature. It's just somebody parroting "How To Win Friends" with an authoritative spin. I found it manipulative and warped. This guy isn't happy with being told what to do. A conversation is very unlikely to sort this out. I don't think leaving is about "punishing the manager." This job will be more appropriate for somebody else, and this company will probably be better off with somebod…

Once you get past the Dale Carnegie stuff though, the top response is actually dead on the mark.

Your compensation has effectively changed (free time is a form of compensation), so it's time to negotiate this change in compensation. Don't threaten to quit and don't assume you can "educate" the new manager on how the industry works. You can't. Try to come to an agreement on personal compensation. If you succeed, great. If you fail, smile, say "thank you" and start looking for another position.

Not only do I think that's excellent advice, I don't think it differs in any material way from what you're saying.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#85

Post by walshemj »

ropz wrote: post #14

What a bunch of spoiled, whining brats! Sure, you can only code for 4-6 hours a day, but why not honor your contract by spending that other 2 hours mentoring less senior people, trying to understand your employer's business goals, and generally trying to do your best to move your company ahead. Sheesh. By the way, the sheer arrogance of the question "How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege…

Yep the wording of the title reeks of a prima dona who has a massive chip on his (and I would bet that it is a male) shoulder.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#86

Post by ChristianMarks »

Perhaps this is slightly off topic, but it seems to me that the 45 hour week is what employers really mean by a 40 hour week. For example, a very recent advertisement for a position at Gold Mansacks stated the job was full time, 40 hours per week, from 9AM to 6PM. One can argue about lunch time, and whether the 40 hours are to occur somewhere within the hours of 9AM to 6PM. (Something tells me that 10AM to 6PM won't cut it.) In my experience, the mandatory lunch isn't mandatory, and the employer is getting closer to 45 hours than 40. At least to me, there is a significant difference between working 35 hours/week and 40 hours/week,especially if those 40 hours involve another 5 hours for "lunch."

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#87

Post by vacri »

jessedhillon wrote: post #55
vacri wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going through the comments older than yours, I think you're significantly misrepresenting them. Very few of them are about punishing the manager. Most of them are about 'prepare to leave' or 'just leave' - the focus is on bettering the individual, not leaving a vindictive mark. In fact, on another review, there is one deleted comment whose content I don't know, and none of the other comments are about punishing the m…

From siblings to my comment: You can't tell them: They can only learn this through experience. Alternately they may be the sort of shop where average developers are perfectly satisfactory. read: The counter-party to your negotiation is not an honest/competent partner who may have reached a rational conclusion given their understanding of the situation. Also, exceptional talent doesn't need to be treated like this. Co…

None of what you have quoted particularly reads as 'punish the manager'. It's only your post-facto flavouring that gives it that emphasis. Pretty much all of it is "you have to look out for #1" - which I agree is not always the best advice, since it doesn't try for a win-win solution.

Yes, there may be some residual punishment or vindictive feelings underlying some of the commentary, but the main focus of pretty much all of it is 'look out for #1, that person is who your duty is to'. It's still a mischaracterisation of the commentary to call it out as suggesting punishment. The bulk of the commentary is not "fuck those guys, make them suffer", but "it's too much effort to change management culture from below - it's far easier to just move onto greener pastures if its available".

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#88

Post by [deleted] »

michaelhoffman wrote: post #28
jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

I think the guide to having a mature discussion is a very good one. I also think it isn't going to work with this kind of manager. If the "mature discussion" is not handled properly it might end up with the manager looking to fire the employee before they find a new job. The safe thing is surely to just start looking for a new job.

[deleted]

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#89

Post by ChristianMarks »

jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

This is a smokescreen. The economic reality is that good managers are a dime a dozen.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#90

Post by asdkl234890 »

jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

I am not sure it is rational to spend a lot effort to teach your management.

If you are their manager, sure. If you love the job, sure. If you work a industry where jobs are rare and it is hard finding a new one, sure.

But if you are software engineer, not working for a startup, and can very easily switch jobs. Why in the world would it be your responsibility to try and fix your management? It's a job, not a marriage.

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