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How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

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Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#31

Post by allochthon »

jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

generally espousing a naive us-versus-them attitude.

It is nearly impossible to avoid this kind of attitude when managers see themselves in a shaping rather than supporting/facilitating role. I've seen good teams given a new, inexperienced manager who sees his job as turning certain knobs and "incenting" certain behaviors and outcomes, and it ends exactly like you think it would. The good devs leave, and the team is in for difficulties. We need to redefine what "management" means.

The critical point that such managers don't seem to get is that good devs must own what they're creating, and they're not instruments to blindly further someone else's purposes.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#32

Post by WalterBright »

Many years ago, an acquaintance of mine told me how incompetent I was running my business and managing people. She really let me have it, how could I be so stupid, anybody could do it better than me, etc.

A few years later, she started her own business, and lost everything, whereas I made money. (Note I'm not saying I was/am a great manager, I'm not.)

Anyhow, it's easy to dismiss your manager as being an incompetent fool. Until you try being one yourself.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#34

Post by allochthon »

ohyes wrote: post #27
jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

In reality, if he can get a 30% pay raise elsewhere, he should take it. It's not about punishing anyone, it's about compensation. Part of his compensation is flexible work hours. Another part is money/benefits. If his manager came in and said 'we're going to pay you 12-24% less for your time' it would be just as much of an issue.

It's not about punishing anyone, it's about compensation.

Not so. Compensation is important if funding is available, but many devs love what they do and the service they're providing, beyond monetary compensation.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#35

Post by [deleted] »

lazyjones wrote: post #20
d0m wrote: post #4

I think explaining that "Most senors developers can leave and get another job with a 30-40% higher pay" and that "most current developers stay because of the flexible time and casual environment" is a very strong point. I would try to understand a bit more the concern about the forced 8 hours a day at the office. But obviously, if the manager is just dumb, just go to higher authority and explain that this manager cou…

> "Most senors developers can leave and get another job with a 30-40% higher pay" and that "most current developers stay because of the flexible time and casual environment" is a very strong point. One of the worst things a developer can do is to underperform on purpose because of thoughts like the above ("I could get a better job elsewhere, so I don't need to put in any effort here"). It leads to the worst possible…

[deleted]

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#36

Post by ansgri »

allochthon wrote: post #34
ohyes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reality, if he can get a 30% pay raise elsewhere, he should take it. It's not about punishing anyone, it's about compensation. Part of his compensation is flexible work hours. Another part is money/benefits. If his manager came in and said 'we're going to pay you 12-24% less for your time' it would be just as much of an issue.

It's not about punishing anyone, it's about compensation. Not so. Compensation is important if funding is available, but many devs love what they do and the service they're providing, beyond monetary compensation.

Indeed, it's called 'compensation' for a reason: it compensates for the time spent doing what you'd prefer not to. If you do what you love, nothing to compensate for :)

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#37

Post by watwut »

allochthon wrote: post #34
ohyes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reality, if he can get a 30% pay raise elsewhere, he should take it. It's not about punishing anyone, it's about compensation. Part of his compensation is flexible work hours. Another part is money/benefits. If his manager came in and said 'we're going to pay you 12-24% less for your time' it would be just as much of an issue.

It's not about punishing anyone, it's about compensation. Not so. Compensation is important if funding is available, but many devs love what they do and the service they're providing, beyond monetary compensation.

I love my work. I do not believe it is a good reason to pay me less and pocket the difference. The chances are that I will love work in other company too.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#38

Post by vacri »

jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

Going through the comments older than yours, I think you're significantly misrepresenting them. Very few of them are about punishing the manager. Most of them are about 'prepare to leave' or 'just leave' - the focus is on bettering the individual, not leaving a vindictive mark.

In fact, on another review, there is one deleted comment whose content I don't know, and none of the other comments are about punishing the manager at all. It's less a '10-to-1' and more 'none-to-one' ratio.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#39

Post by lhnz »

allochthon wrote: post #31
jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

generally espousing a naive us-versus-them attitude. It is nearly impossible to avoid this kind of attitude when managers see themselves in a shaping rather than supporting/facilitating role. I've seen good teams given a new, inexperienced manager who sees his job as turning certain knobs and "incenting" certain behaviors and outcomes, and it ends exactly like you think it would. The good devs leave, and the team is…

That was a really good post. I've never seen the distinction between supporting/facilitating and shaping pointed out in such a lucid way.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#40

Post by codingdave »

For those younger folk who ask why older management feels that the younger generation is full of entitlement - this scenario is exactly why.

The young engineer feels that they are a gift to their employer, and should have the freedom to work as they want.

The older manager feels that the work environment has a structure inherent within it, to which people are expected to comply.

As the engineer, it is your right to quit if you don't want to play by the rules.

As the manager, it is your right to fire people who won't work within your guidelines.

Either way, it is not a privilege on either side, nor a punishment if one side or the other decides to end the relationship.

It is simply two incompatible perspectives. If neither side will change, best to move on.

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