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How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

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Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"maybe they only need mediocrity" One thing I've learned on the employer/employee side of development (that was initially painful, but now just seems obvious) is that for most software projects as long as the goal is well defined and meets some need in some market as well as expected, all they do need is mediocrity. And I mean this is the sincerest way, not the "fuck them for thinking this" way, but the "they are rig…

It's important to realize that the goals of the manager and the developer are not necessarily aligned. In many cases, managers rationally prefer mediocrity. As a manager, you can either lead great devs on a 6-person-month project, or you can remove the good devs and turn that into a 36-person-month project. In the former, you're going to be seen by your peers and upper management and somebody who had an easy task but…

Perhaps. But managers have budgets, and at most companies controlling those budgets is the path to success. If I can deliver a great product with smaller staff (and less overhead) I'm generally going to come out far ahead.

I remember one of my first forays into management. It was a small team full of really good developers. We delivered ahead of schedule and way under budget. I remember thinking "this sucks, I'm not really DOING anything. I'm just letting these guys go out and kill it and keeping everything out of the way. This isn't going to end well for me".

It was the opposite. My boss was pleased as punch that we came in way under budget and ahead of schedule. The complexity (or lack of) didn't really seem to even show up on his radar.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#72
post #14

What a bunch of spoiled, whining brats! Sure, you can only code for 4-6 hours a day, but why not honor your contract by spending that other 2 hours mentoring less senior people, trying to understand your employer's business goals, and generally trying to do your best to move your company ahead. Sheesh. By the way, the sheer arrogance of the question "How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege…

Work contract is an exchange of services between peers for the mutual benefit. If one of the peers wants something that is harmful to both of them, it is the responsibility of other peer to point that out.

There is no moral responsibility to "honor your contract". The contract is a mutual agreement, not a word of God.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#73
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to realize that the goals of the manager and the developer are not necessarily aligned. In many cases, managers rationally prefer mediocrity. As a manager, you can either lead great devs on a 6-person-month project, or you can remove the good devs and turn that into a 36-person-month project. In the former, you're going to be seen by your peers and upper management and somebody who had an easy task but…

Perhaps. But managers have budgets, and at most companies controlling those budgets is the path to success. If I can deliver a great product with smaller staff (and less overhead) I'm generally going to come out far ahead. I remember one of my first forays into management. It was a small team full of really good developers. We delivered ahead of schedule and way under budget. I remember thinking "this sucks, I'm not…

> and keeping everything out of the way.

Because this is supposed to be the job of a good manager. Not bossing people around, but abstracting away and isolating things irrelevant to their tasks.

Congratulations on your success!

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#74
IMHO a manager is to a good engineer what a tennis coach is to a tennis player.

The coach cannot play tennis any better than the player, but he can help him, keep him practicing, have him not miss any tournaments, manage his time, etc.

The coach trusts the player that he knows how to play tennis and player trusts his coach that he keep his back free of distractions.

I think the main task of a manager is to enable the engineer to do his/her work. Presence-obsession seems counter productive and this manager does not seems to understand how to manage smart people.

Lastly it has been shown, that the human brain can concentrate for about 6h on every sleep-wake cycle, everything else is subconscious drifting and distracting. A 40h or more mandate is counter productive.

So a candid discussion with the manager making these points and explaining the mutual benefit would be in order. If that does not work one has three choices: (1) accept it (2) escalate up (3) leave. Which of these is appropriate depends on the specific circumstances.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#75
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top-voted answer is a great example of how much wording matters. It sounds very mature and reasonable, compared to the off-the-cuff and coarse answers given in the comments here. But when you actually look at what it says, it's basically "roll over". The best outcome envisioned in that response is, "If he compromises and lets you have a bit of flexibility". First, take a moment to appreciate that *lets you have"…

> But when you actually look at what it says, it's basically "roll over" I don't think we read the same comment. It most certainly doesn't say roll over. It says try to find a diplomatic solution before you fire shots. An ultimatum isn't going to change anyone's mind, and will only make things difficult. Try to come to an understanding so OP can keep his job and be happy, and the new manager can keep his developers a…

A diplomatic situation implies a meeting of equals. That comment suggests a meeting wherein you very very very gently raise the possibility that perhaps there can be a small change to what's been mandated.

Cordial and professional doesn't mean being a doormat, and talking to management as an adult with autonomy over one's own life does not require an ultimatum.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#77
Went to stackexchange, wanted to make comment, "must have 50 reputation points to comment", remembered why I don't use sites like stackexchange.com.

I'm a big fan of Dale Carnegie's book, and like many famous books, you can support many arguments using it. Also, it's strange that the top voted posts pulls several quotes for changing someone's opinion/winning an argument and uses that to support an argument of: "Respect his authority", which is nowhere in the Carnegie book.

I think of the story Dale Carnegie relates when a hotel he had long worked with decided to massively increase the rates for renting out that venue after the engagement had already been booked. (Analogous to changing workplace rules after you've already decided to work their in return for certain forms of monetary and non-monetary compensation).

The hotel certainly had every right to change their rental prices, it is, after all, their property. Dale had every right to either accept the new prices, complain about the new prices or leave. (I hope I don't have to spell out the analogies anymore).

So what did Dale do? He called up the hotel, not in an angry way, and laid out a list of pros and cons to the hotel changing their prices for speaking engagements.

Under pros, they would have an open schedule during a busy time of the year, and could book other engagements. Under cons, instead of getting value from Dale Carnegie, they would get none. The other Con was that having Dale Carnegie speak at the venue gave them tons of exposure to their target demographic.

The employee/employer relationship, especially for developers, isn't too dissimilar, and I think the SO OP gets that. While it's certainly the companies decision about whether or not they want to change workplace policies (including non-monetary forms of compensation like flexible hours), employees are under zero obligation to continue providing their services under the new plan.

However, A nice employee who has been treated respectfully may decide to warn the company, out of the good of his or her heart, that their new "compensation" program will cause them to lose one or more employees, which will result in a decrease in morale, productivity, the manager in question might end up being punished for his or her poor retention performance, and they will have become less competitive in the insanely competitive market for development talent.

You can call them ultimatums if you want, but at the end of the day employees agree to a compensation package in return for their services. Both sides can terminate that agreement at any time, and changes to either the service the employee provides or the compensation the employer provides are valid reasons to do so.

The word "authority" doesn't come into play.

In the software development industry, it's not like working for the town plant. It's extremely progressive, has great compensation benefits and flexibility. If a company isn't keeping up with the standard compensation package, you're doing them a service (though they may not realize it) by letting them know and possibly quitting. I've always understood 6-7 hours in the office to be quid pro quo for things like crunch time, servers going down in the middle of the night, etc.

Nothing's stopping the company from posting a job that pays 40k and requires 80 hours a week of in-office time, and nothing will force a competent developer to apply for that job.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#78
post #24

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

I didn't personally find it very mature. It's just somebody parroting "How To Win Friends" with an authoritative spin. I found it manipulative and warped. This guy isn't happy with being told what to do. A conversation is very unlikely to sort this out. I don't think leaving is about "punishing the manager." This job will be more appropriate for somebody else, and this company will probably be better off with somebod…

This job will be more appropriate for somebody else, and this company will probably be better off with somebody happy working in the new environment.

If several senior developers leave because their attitude is not a good fit for new management, then the company may have to hire and then train new staff on loads of bespoke stuff without the people who wrote it being there. Who cares about getting people who fit the company culture if doing so kills your product?

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#79

For those younger folk who ask why older management feels that the younger generation is full of entitlement - this scenario is exactly why. The young engineer feels that they are a gift to their employer, and should have the freedom to work as they want. The older manager feels that the work environment has a structure inherent within it, to which people are expected to comply. As the engineer, it is your right to q…

There is nothing about the poster that implies that the poster is particularly young. Simply that the developer isn't part of management. Additionally, it is a fallacy to confuse entitlement with rationalism. The developer rationally knows that based on their skills they can go elsewhere easily. The question posed is an interesting one. The manager who has been brought on certainly has the right to make changes. But don't fall prey to the assumption that the manager is a good one. Companies fail all the time because they make human mistakes. The tragedy here is that chances are this cultural shift will probably kill this company if it is too small. Most developers these days have the privilege of picking workplaces based on the culture and companies that don't account for this won't succeed. There is a reason that google has a fleet of private busses that take their developers to and from work.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#80
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about punishing anyone, it's about compensation. Not so. Compensation is important if funding is available, but many devs love what they do and the service they're providing, beyond monetary compensation.

Indeed, it's called 'compensation' for a reason: it compensates for the time spent doing what you'd prefer not to. If you do what you love, nothing to compensate for :)

It's a compensation for opportunity cost. Even if it may be really fun to build things that make others rich I'll still need food, a roof, and healthcare.
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