Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

workplace.stackexchange.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 123 posts

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#61

Post by benihana »

mikeash wrote: post #53
lhnz wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't personally find it very mature. It's just somebody parroting "How To Win Friends" with an authoritative spin. I found it manipulative and warped. This guy isn't happy with being told what to do. A conversation is very unlikely to sort this out. I don't think leaving is about "punishing the manager." This job will be more appropriate for somebody else, and this company will probably be better off with somebod…

The top-voted answer is a great example of how much wording matters. It sounds very mature and reasonable, compared to the off-the-cuff and coarse answers given in the comments here. But when you actually look at what it says, it's basically "roll over". The best outcome envisioned in that response is, "If he compromises and lets you have a bit of flexibility". First, take a moment to appreciate that *lets you have"…

>But when you actually look at what it says, it's basically "roll over"

I don't think we read the same comment. It most certainly doesn't say roll over. It says try to find a diplomatic solution before you fire shots. An ultimatum isn't going to change anyone's mind, and will only make things difficult. Try to come to an understanding so OP can keep his job and be happy, and the new manager can keep his developers and be happy. It also says that if there's no other way out but to leave, it costs OP nothing to be cordial and professional as he's exiting the company.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#63

Post by codeonfire »

jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

In software, tiny complaints that make it up to the leaf nodes of the corporate tree are usually signals of huge iceberg problems below you. People are not saying leave your job to punish management. They are saying leave because things were previously OK, but now some things are happening down below that you will never be allowed to know about until it's too late. You have to amplify your actions and move quickly because of how little information you get.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#64

Post by lhnz »

jessedhillon wrote: post #55
vacri wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going through the comments older than yours, I think you're significantly misrepresenting them. Very few of them are about punishing the manager. Most of them are about 'prepare to leave' or 'just leave' - the focus is on bettering the individual, not leaving a vindictive mark. In fact, on another review, there is one deleted comment whose content I don't know, and none of the other comments are about punishing the m…

From siblings to my comment: You can't tell them: They can only learn this through experience. Alternately they may be the sort of shop where average developers are perfectly satisfactory. read: The counter-party to your negotiation is not an honest/competent partner who may have reached a rational conclusion given their understanding of the situation. Also, exceptional talent doesn't need to be treated like this. Co…

>> read: Management is hidebound and petty. No possibility for compromise exists. Management placing burdensome demands on your time, therefore, is not an opportunity to negotiate but a cause to leave. Tolerance of such a situation is for low-skill employees only.

You are misconstruing what I said.

Negotiating often isn't the best option. You can cause a lot of harm attempting to negotiate. Rather than being a jerk about your opinions and trying to convert other people to them, it's better to go and find people that share them. (Additionally, I'm unsure that the OP was looking for a compromise, and disagree that compromise is possible between a rigid 8 hours a day and 6-7 hours a day. The numbers are very close; it's effectively one or the other here.)

I might be wrong to imply that tolerance is for low-skilled employees only, as there are high-skilled employees who tolerate or enjoy these circumstances, too. But somebody that can easily get another job is more likely to get another job - so there is something to this. I guess I said it more because of the OPs frame, which was cocky: "I'm a hotshot. I can go and get another job." (If you look at everything else I said however, I did say that the company can probably find somebody that is a better cultural/work-ethic fit. I think it's win-win.)

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#65

Post by derefr »

jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

The difference between the two perspectives is that, in a buyer's market (e.g. SV), managers have no authority--or rather, have merely the imaginary kind of authority a grown adult perceives in their parents.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#66

Post by DavidWoof »

georgemcbay wrote: post #60
jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

"maybe they only need mediocrity" One thing I've learned on the employer/employee side of development (that was initially painful, but now just seems obvious) is that for most software projects as long as the goal is well defined and meets some need in some market as well as expected, all they do need is mediocrity. And I mean this is the sincerest way, not the "fuck them for thinking this" way, but the "they are rig…

It's important to realize that the goals of the manager and the developer are not necessarily aligned. In many cases, managers rationally prefer mediocrity.

As a manager, you can either lead great devs on a 6-person-month project, or you can remove the good devs and turn that into a 36-person-month project. In the former, you're going to be seen by your peers and upper management and somebody who had an easy task but can't control your unruly employees who keep strange hours and don't follow the dress code. In the latter, you're going to be seen as somebody who successfully managed a very complex project with a large staff, impressively inspiring the employees to mass amounts of unpaid overtime.

The path to success for management lies in controlling larger staffs and larger budgets. Good development just gets in the way.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#67

Post by Theodores »

hadees wrote: post #6

I think the simple way would be to just ask for a raise to market levels or in lieu of more pay you would take additional privileges such as being able to set your own hours.

Or it could be rephrased - effectively he is only working a four day week spread over five days. If he is to work a full five day week he will 'need' 25% in more pay.

The chances are that if he does move to somewhere else he will have to do the full 8 hours a day but his pay will be commensurate with that. Again, this could be explained like that rather than 'you pay badly'.

So it may work if the manager 'sees' him as only hired for a four day week. He can then make the case for paying him for five days a week in order to achieve certain objectives, e.g. meet deadlines.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#68

Post by greenyoda »

ropz wrote: post #14

What a bunch of spoiled, whining brats! Sure, you can only code for 4-6 hours a day, but why not honor your contract by spending that other 2 hours mentoring less senior people, trying to understand your employer's business goals, and generally trying to do your best to move your company ahead. Sheesh. By the way, the sheer arrogance of the question "How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege…

He says he's in the office 6-7 hours a day, but that doesn't mean he's only working for that amount of time - he could also be working from home (and being much more productive during that time than he would be at the office).

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#69

Post by TeMPOraL »

DavidWoof wrote: post #66
georgemcbay wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"maybe they only need mediocrity" One thing I've learned on the employer/employee side of development (that was initially painful, but now just seems obvious) is that for most software projects as long as the goal is well defined and meets some need in some market as well as expected, all they do need is mediocrity. And I mean this is the sincerest way, not the "fuck them for thinking this" way, but the "they are rig…

It's important to realize that the goals of the manager and the developer are not necessarily aligned. In many cases, managers rationally prefer mediocrity. As a manager, you can either lead great devs on a 6-person-month project, or you can remove the good devs and turn that into a 36-person-month project. In the former, you're going to be seen by your peers and upper management and somebody who had an easy task but…

> The path to success for management lies in controlling larger staffs and larger budgets. Good development just gets in the way.

This is sick and this is exactly the problem with the manager mentioned in the SE question. The manager should not focus on controlling staff, but on controlling the workplace environment so that developers can focus on building the product, and not on in-office politics, dealing with angry customers, faulty equipment, etc. The role of manager should be one of a servant, not of a boss. Some other terms for that: "shit umbrella" and "developer abstraction layer".

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#70

Post by mb_72 »

ohyes wrote: post #22

It's called an exit interview. Once you secure a new job, don't be shy with your managers about why you are leaving.

I would be wary about being completely open and honest about such things at exit interviews. There is nothing to gain for the ex-employee personally at that point in time, and everything to lose by 'burning bridges'. You never know when a few criticisms (even if they are accurate and correct) will come back to haunt you. At the exit interview, the main thing is to do what is best for yourself. If you really want to change how the company operates, stay on and apply gentle pressure or guidance. Criticism presented at an exit interview will 99% of the time come off sounding like sour grapes (unfortunately).
Post reply on HN