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Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

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Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#111

Post by vezzy-fnord »

DanielStraight wrote: post #73

I really think both sides get this issue very wrong. Creationism is not valid science, obviously. But that's because it isn't science at all. It is a religious belief, which is by definition non-scientific. Here is where the science side gets things wrong. Creationism is a NON-scientific belief, not an ANTI-scientific belief. It's not anti-intellectual or stupid or backward either. It's a choice to believe in the sup…

No one is denying your right to believe in unfalsifiable and unjustified theology.

Of course creationism itself isn't anti-scientific, but the majority of people who deeply believe it do have anti-scientific agendas.

Is it stupid and backward? I'm not going to conclusively comment on this, but you seem to think that just because it's a choice, it has to be legitimate. No, it can be a wrong choice.

Schools shouldn't teach students to be religious, but they should teach them to understand religion... and not just as a cute, prehistoric way of explaining things that science now has exclusive domain over. Religious beliefs, as non-scientific beliefs, are non-falsifiable. Students need to understand this. Modern science does not falsify religious beliefs. It provides an alternative based on empirical evidence. But there is no requirement that everyone on Earth only accept things based on empirical evidence. It may seem odd to you to deliberately choose to believe something which isn't based on empirical evidence, but many people do (knowingly at that) and that is their right.

Argumentum ad populum. Just because a lot of people resort to superstition to explain natural events does not mean it is legitimate or correct.

The right to believe in unsubstantiated claims doesn't shield you from criticism on the illegitimacy of your claims.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#112

Post by piokoch »

The funniest this is that's creationism is a side effect of a strange, but very popular view of "tolerance". We are told that tolerance means that various points of view on any issue must be accepted, regardless if they make sense or not.

As a result with hava a wide stream of various absurdities comming from "the left" (gender people claiming that there are no differences between boys and girls) and from "the right" (creationism) are propagated instead of radiculed and thrown away. The same with Homeopathy and countless other things.

Another interesting thing is what happened with protestant churches. Once they were seen as progressive and modern (in Calvin, Luther times). Now they are either bunch of annoying old bishop-ladies ignored by everyone, who think that having gay priests is the most important thing on the World (Church of England) or radiculous morons who claim that earth was created 6000 years ago.

BTW it's somehow incorrect to call them Christians. They do not follow tradition and intellectual heritage of Roman Catholic Church. I guess that Thomas of Aquin and other great Christian philosophers are rolling in their graves seeing such widespread grow of stupidity among people who call themselves Christians.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#113

Post by jonesetc »

cobrausn wrote: post #22
jonesetc wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the only way to do it is to move out of Austin and start converting.

Don't live in Austin. Austinites are pretty good at marketing themselves as progressives surrounded by the 'rest of Texas', but the reality is, as always, a bit more complicated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston

Sorry, that was mostly a joke.

I have never lived in any of the other major cities in Texas, so I certainly don't understand the full dynamics of their politics. I do understand that at the heart of the major cities they tend to be more liberal, which is expected of just about any major city. However, as an Austinite I can say it feels like the liberal bleeds more into the suburbs here than in the other major cities. This may be because of Austin's relatively small size or just bad anecdotal evidence. Take that as you will and I hope I didn't rustle too many jimmies.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#114

Post by vezzy-fnord »

piokoch wrote: post #112

The funniest this is that's creationism is a side effect of a strange, but very popular view of "tolerance". We are told that tolerance means that various points of view on any issue must be accepted, regardless if they make sense or not. As a result with hava a wide stream of various absurdities comming from "the left" (gender people claiming that there are no differences between boys and girls) and from "the right"…

BTW it's somehow incorrect to call them Christians. They do not follow tradition and intellectual heritage of Roman Catholic Church.

No True Scotsman, lad!

The Roman Catholic Church were not the first and "true" Christians. The Gnostics were: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gnosticism

Movements and cultures naturally stratify and disband. Just as postmodern, radical, anarchist and separatist feminists are just as legitimate as more traditional feminists (no matter how much they might try to claim the contrary), the same way all these Christian denominations are Christians like all others.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#115

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

mschuster91 wrote: post #37
Karunamon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention the fact that home-schooled kids are far, far behind "ordinary schooled" kids in terms of knowledge. Citation badly needed.

Applying common sense should be enough. You as a parent have neither the time nor the knowledge of all the various subjects that are taught in school, not to mention a proper paedagogic/teaching education.

I am a college instructor. I think that covers "proper paedagogic/teaching education."

>You as a parent have neither the time

This part is true. Even if it weren't, I probably wouldn't pursue home-schooling my children. Neither proves the point that no person/family is up to the task.

> nor the knowledge of all the various subjects

I may be deluding myself, but I feel confident that I have mastered all of the elements of "basic high school curriculum." I expect that is true for many people. As far as any of that goes, home-schooling does not necessarily require that one person does all of the instruction, nor that the curriculum is confined to that which is within the bounds of what the parent(s) knows. In fact the parent(s) could outsource nearly all of the instruction, and merely act in a supervisory role.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#116

Post by FrankenPC »

stephenhuey wrote: post #100
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Atheist, I am not generally opposed to a religion class, even a compulsory one. Religion is a reality, and ignoring it is as bad as ignoring any other reality. Teaching creationism is worse than a mere study of religion because it promotes rote memorization of demonstrably incorrect ideas as facts.

A fellow Christian and scientist named Dr. James Tour explained that many creationists do not understand the limits of the scientific method. Dr. Tour concludes, "I am sympathetic to the arguments on the matter and I find some of them intriguing, but the scientific proof is not there, in my opinion." http://www.jmtour.com/personal-topics/the-scientist-and-his-... So in response to people clamoring for creationism in…

That sounds like a fair and lively scientific discussion to have. It's a shame that won't happen.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#117

Post by cobrausn »

jonesetc wrote: post #113
cobrausn wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't live in Austin. Austinites are pretty good at marketing themselves as progressives surrounded by the 'rest of Texas', but the reality is, as always, a bit more complicated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston

Sorry, that was mostly a joke. I have never lived in any of the other major cities in Texas, so I certainly don't understand the full dynamics of their politics. I do understand that at the heart of the major cities they tend to be more liberal, which is expected of just about any major city. However, as an Austinite I can say it feels like the liberal bleeds more into the suburbs here than in the other major cities.…

I think that's mostly due to Austin's small size and exclusivity, but it's also a lot of 'image' that Austinites like to reinforce. I also find it entertaining that the self-described most 'progressive' city in Texas is actually the least diverse major city in Texas, with ~70% white population. Don't worry too much about the regional politics of Texas, especially if you don't live here - it's often quite maddening. :-D

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#118

Post by FrankenPC »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #72
FrankenPC wrote: post #29

How does one "teach" creationism? Answer: you don't. Simply reciting "god did it" over and over is sufficient. No, this is Christian apologetics that they are teaching. In other words it's a religion class, NOT a science class. If this school is taking public money, those funds need to be withdrawn until the curriculum is properly labeled.

As an Atheist, I am not generally opposed to a religion class, even a compulsory one. Religion is a reality, and ignoring it is as bad as ignoring any other reality. Teaching creationism is worse than a mere study of religion because it promotes rote memorization of demonstrably incorrect ideas as facts.

I disagree. What it teaches is how to accept dogma without reservation. It's a brainwashing technique on par with anything the CIA could come up with.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#119

Post by [deleted] »

singlow wrote: post #92
stonemetal wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are still in Texas you have some control. The state board of education determine Curriculum and instructional materials. Board members are elected so your vote and campaign contributions would have an effect.

I don't think that board's decisions are directly affecting this charter school though. The decisions they make effect the curriculum used by public schools. While this school receives public funding, it operates largely as a private school, with curriculum chosen by its own board. There are certain mandates that they must fulfill, and a general plan which must be approved by the state education board in their initia…

[deleted]

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#120

Post by pdonis »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #83
mschuster91 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, yes, you hit the nail. I see certain religious beliefs, including "creationism" and "vaccinophobia" as existential threats to a free and open society.

Funny thing is, I see certain political beliefs -- like contempt for religious freedom (and other freedoms centered around belief and conscience) -- as existential threats to a free and open society. I think I have a good case that they're a far more direct threat as well, as well. I could even make the case that it's a fundamental contradiction, maybe even a lie, to pursue a "free" society by suppressing freedom. :P

I don't disagree that contempt for freedom of thought--which includes the freedom to think thoughts and believe things that are false--is a serious threat to a free and open society. But I would also point out that, taken to its logical conclusion, this is an argument against public education in general. Any system of public education will end up teaching children things that their parents disagree with on freedom of thought grounds (or indeed the children themselves--I was taught plenty of things in school that I disagreed with, but I still had to give the "correct" answers on tests if I wanted to get good grades). If freedom of thought is a fundamental right, then there is no justification for any system of public education.
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