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Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

lists.w3.org

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Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#281

Post by talmand »

bgruber wrote: post #250
bitwize wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me tell you how things work in the real world. When the people with money say "we want this", you don't argue. It doesn't matter if it's technically infeasible. It doesn't matter if it won't have the intended effect. When the people with money want something, YOU GIVE IT TO THEM. And let them deal with the consequences. Otherwise, you won't get the business, and life can otherwise be made very, very difficult for…

> So the Web either gets DRM, or Hollywood makes content available on proprietary platforms that provide it. so, let's turn the web into another proprietary platform?

Or maybe make a small part of the web, which already has proprietary elements to it, have a new proprietary element that you can freely decide to not participate in.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#282

Post by Semaphor »

shmerl wrote: post #278
Semaphor wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steam is a distributor. If a certain games has the Steam DRM included or not is (though sadly not mentioned on the product page) up to the publisher/developer. On the GOG forum there is a (probably outdated) list [1] of those games. [1] http://www.gog.com/forum/general/list_of_drmfree_games_on_st...

DRM proliferation is conducted in three steps: 1. Publishers decide to treat all potential users as criminals, and insist on using DRM in their products. 2. Distributors accept that, and help these unethical publishers to sell those products. 3. Users accept being treated as criminals, and buy these products from distributors. It starts from the publisher of course, but anywhere down the line, one can refuse to accep…

I wasn't making a statement regarding DRM, I was just refuting that all steam games have DRM ;)

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#283

Post by talmand »

gcb0 wrote: post #159
nemothekid wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The PS3 only went uncracked for so long because Sony offered the option to install Linux on the PS3. Once Sony removed that option the people with the smarts to crack the PS3 did so. Once a magnifying glass was put under the PS3 it turned out that the "DRM" was actually horribly implemented (like Rand() functions that were essentially returning constants). http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4lo.…

i don't follow sony because i don't consume from companies with lock in tactics (betamax, laserdisc, md, memory stick, etc, etc) but thank you for that. it was awesomely entertaining.

So, your current living quarters has hardly any modern entertainment to speak of? Good thing libraries still exist.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#284

Post by talmand »

RexRollman wrote: post #216
andybak wrote: post #196

A key paragraph: link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-restrictedmedia/2... Well, as I say, the actual requirements that lead to the proposal of EME would be a start. This is how it looks to those who don't agree that EME is a good fit with the Open Web: - 'big content' has certain requirements relating to preventing users copying data streams - they won't make those requirements public (as you've said, th…

Well, my question is does HTML even need to encompass everything it does. It seems to me that we have an ever expanding monster. HTML does not have to be everything for everyone.

I thought that was more-or-less what was being discussed. My understanding was that the media element being accessed would not play the stream unless a specified DRM component was available, most often due to a plugin installed to the browser. It wasn't that they wanted DRM in the open web, they wanted the open web to have the ability to communicate with a third-party DRM. A third-party solution that an individual can decline to install and not participate.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#285

Post by shmerl »

Semaphor wrote: post #282
shmerl wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DRM proliferation is conducted in three steps: 1. Publishers decide to treat all potential users as criminals, and insist on using DRM in their products. 2. Distributors accept that, and help these unethical publishers to sell those products. 3. Users accept being treated as criminals, and buy these products from distributors. It starts from the publisher of course, but anywhere down the line, one can refuse to accep…

I wasn't making a statement regarding DRM, I was just refuting that all steam games have DRM ;)

> I was just refuting that all steam games have DRM

Practically all do, I already explained above. Being unable to back up the installer is already DRM, and it's coming from Valve themselves, not from the publishers.

Always on-line DRM and such is another level of nastiness, but the above is DRM too.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#286

Post by talmand »

Daiz wrote: post #151

This should really be at the top of every HTML DRM discussion: HTML DRM will not give you plugin-free or standardized playback. It will simply replace Flash/Silverlight with multiple custom and proprietary DRM black boxes that will likely have even worse cross-platform compatibility than the existing solutions. In other words, giving in to HTML DRM will only make the situation worse . Some vendors will keep pushing f…

But that's the solution you would want, a plugin. That way the DRM is not part of every browser being made, it's an add-on that individuals can decline to install. Content providers want this and they will eventually get it, one way or another. If they don't get their plugin then they'll go with their deep pockets to demand laws that require all browsers to have this tech by default, without your choice. Which would lead to browsers either complying or removing the media elements.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#287

Post by Semaphor »

shmerl wrote: post #285
Semaphor wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't making a statement regarding DRM, I was just refuting that all steam games have DRM ;)

> I was just refuting that all steam games have DRM Practically all do, I already explained above. Being unable to back up the installer is already DRM, and it's coming from Valve themselves, not from the publishers. Always on-line DRM and such is another level of nastiness, but the above is DRM too.

You can still backup the game files after installation.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#288

Post by shmerl »

Semaphor wrote: post #287
shmerl wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was just refuting that all steam games have DRM Practically all do, I already explained above. Being unable to back up the installer is already DRM, and it's coming from Valve themselves, not from the publishers. Always on-line DRM and such is another level of nastiness, but the above is DRM too.

You can still backup the game files after installation.

That may or may not work for reinstalling the game another time. And Steam doesn't help to make it easier, and doesn't let you find out these details before buying the game. therefore I don't consider it to be really DRM-free. The proper DRM free game is distributed as installer / archive package. Steam doesn't offer such option.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#289

Post by deelowe »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #255
deelowe wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't change the fact that Hotz was working on the crack before otheros was removed. So, the removal of otheros was not the seminal moment that the op described. That is, the ps3 did not take so long to crack due to insufficient motivation. It took as long as it did, because it was a more difficult platform. There are similar trends in other areas as well like rooting/jailbreaking phones and installing Linux on UEF…

Hotz's hacking may have been a contributing factor for getting OtherOS removed, but it's removal does appear to be a motivation to those behind the more complete hacks that followed (I believe it's mentioned in the video series I linked to). So with a timeline of April 2010 to December 2010, fully exploiting the PS3 security took less than 12 months.

Sure, but I think that's orthogonal. My comment is addressing the OPs original premise. I seriously doubt there were hackers sitting around saying "we'll leave the PS3 alone as long as OtherOS stays supported." While removing OtherOS certainly brought more attention to the platform and accelerated the hacking, I think the reason it took so long for the PS3 to be finally cracked mostly had to do with the complexity of the architecture or other things. I don't think OtherOS was a factor.

As a counterpoint, I offer the xbox 360, which to my knowledge has not been cracked except for DVD firmware hacks and physically altering the device (mod chips).

The conclusion of this is that hackers will not continue to win the DRM battle. Eventually, enough holes will be plugged, where cracking these products becomes so time or cost prohibitive that the product stays closed for it's lifetime.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#290

Post by psionski »

talmand wrote: post #272
jellicle wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UN declaration of human rights includes one sentence talking about the right to food, and many paragraphs talking about the right to participate in culture, community, communicate, and so on. So if we judge by that, the right to participate in culture is more important than the right to food (or more likely, is simply more often challenged and disagreed with). If the whole legal regime around copyright is having…

Wait, are you implying that the UN has declared that stealing the results of someone's labor is justified because it's a "right"? We might as well declare anarchy and get it over with. I also fail to see how copyright laws are preventing anyone from enjoying their culture.

It's sad times we live in when creating culture is labeled "labor", "work" and so forth... About the "stealing" part - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/06/lady-gaga-jack-whit... artists are more than happy to let anyone experience their art, it's the producers that have a problem with it.

I guess this is what you get when you allow business-minded people to define what being human is all about...

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