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Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

lists.w3.org

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Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#241

Post by mseebach »

RexRollman wrote: post #214
rmc wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually I think you can also attribute it to (a) the iPod becoming massively popular and becoming synonmous with "portable music player", (b) Only Apple DRM and non-DRM-able MP3s supported on the iPod. The iPod won the music player market, so if you tried to sell music with DRM you need to either (i) play by Apple's rules or (ii) have mundane tech users being confused when they can't play the music they bought on th…

True, but the Apple music beast was really created by the music industry who insisted on them using DRM in the first place.

Yes, Apple did a bait-and-switch on the music industry. First they won by playing by the rules, then they used their dominance to change the rules.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#242

Post by wernercd »

tesmar2 wrote: post #227
Fuxy wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally as one of those pirates they are trying to stop piracy is only an issue when your content is not easily accessible the legal way or it is too expensive. I have experienced both. For instance songs are very cheap when your monthly income over £1,500 but when your monthly income is £300 (that's the equivalent in pounds in the country i grew up in) that's a bit too much for just one song. Same for everything…

> forced You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Depends... He could live somewhere that he can't get access to legal copies of TV shows he wants to watch (Some TV shows take months, if ever, to show up locally). Or live somewhere like Australia where everything costs prohibitively more than elsewhere.

If I want a TV show - Say House of Cards - and it's not available, or it's available much later than elsewhere, or it's prohibitively more pricey... They want the show and the only reasonable way to get it... then it will "force" people who want it to Piracy.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#243

Post by byuu »

pmr_ wrote: post #167
byuu wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DRM is becoming increasingly complex and elaborate, and taking longer and longer to fully crack. Compare PS2 to PS3 crack times, for instance. The media executives are of the firm belief that unbreakable DRM is just around the corner, and that when they reach it, piracy will end and they can go back to charging whatever they want again. A return to the good old days of $25 CDs for one song you like and eight fill…

How much quality loss people are willing to accept if they are not really keen on the content is astonishing. If you go to the pirate bay and look at some of the comments on the tele-synced copies, R6 with hardcoded Chinese subs and all the other sub-par quality rips there still is a large amount of positive feedback. Sure, there is always someone who doesn't know what any of the cryptic abbreviations in the title me…

For music, I can go as low as 128kbps MP3 without noticing much of a difference, and 192kbps without noticing any difference.

For movies, I've always been perfectly happy with DVD recodes into 700MB XviD. Could probably go much lower if they were recoding from a lossless master and using H.265. For most things, the Bluray/1080p quality jump reveals details I don't want to see, like how caked on actor makeup is, and all of their skin complexion issues. Great for nature shows, though.

The cutoff points for me are 64kbps Shoutcasts and telesyncs. At that point, the quality is so bad that it makes me dislike the music or movie I am watching.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#244

Post by jscheel »

Fuxy wrote: post #226
simonsarris wrote: post #107

I suppose that the title assertion is to be expected. DRM only works if you don't know how it works. ~~~ I'm not sure I see anything wrong with DRM per se (this could be my fever talking), there are probably good uses I'm too dim to think about, but I do think it's unnecessary as part of the HTML specification. There's no industry or company that has switched to DRM-free content, that I know of, that has failed or su…

Personally as one of those pirates they are trying to stop piracy is only an issue when your content is not easily accessible the legal way or it is too expensive. I have experienced both. For instance songs are very cheap when your monthly income over £1,500 but when your monthly income is £300 (that's the equivalent in pounds in the country i grew up in) that's a bit too much for just one song. Same for everything…

You are NEVER forced to steal things that aren't essential to survival. Starving on the street and steal a loaf a bread, that's one thing. Don't want to participate in many varied ways of listen to music for free legally and so choosing to steal the next big album you want to hear, not ok, ever.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#245

Post by Semaphor »

shmerl wrote: post #117
simonsarris wrote: post #107

I suppose that the title assertion is to be expected. DRM only works if you don't know how it works. ~~~ I'm not sure I see anything wrong with DRM per se (this could be my fever talking), there are probably good uses I'm too dim to think about, but I do think it's unnecessary as part of the HTML specification. There's no industry or company that has switched to DRM-free content, that I know of, that has failed or su…

Steam can't be considered DRM free in many cases, for example because they don't let you backing up installers / packages, so if the service closes down you lose your collection. The only completely DRM-free gaming distributor is GOG. Humble Bundle and Desura are mixed. You are right in general though. Going DRM free not only won't hurt any publisher, it will only gain respect from customers and will improve the qual…

Steam is a distributor. If a certain games has the Steam DRM included or not is (though sadly not mentioned on the product page) up to the publisher/developer. On the GOG forum there is a (probably outdated) list [1] of those games.

[1] http://www.gog.com/forum/general/list_of_drmfree_games_on_st...

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#246

Post by jscheel »

andybak wrote: post #196

A key paragraph: link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-restrictedmedia/2... Well, as I say, the actual requirements that lead to the proposal of EME would be a start. This is how it looks to those who don't agree that EME is a good fit with the Open Web: - 'big content' has certain requirements relating to preventing users copying data streams - they won't make those requirements public (as you've said, th…

Exactly. The "just trust us" approach is bogus, antithetical to the open web, and cripples the overall progress in this discussion.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#247

Post by makomk »

bitwize wrote: post #163
Nursie wrote: post #69

Great. DRM. The best example of shooting yourself in the foot ever. Give customers encrypted content and the keys, try to prevent them from freely using the two together, undermine copyright fair use and first sale doctrines as you go along. Intended effect - No Piracy Actual effect - Paying customers get crippled products, pirates carry on regardless It's crazy. And the more they try to lock it down the worse their…

Let me tell you how things work in the real world. When the people with money say "we want this", you don't argue. It doesn't matter if it's technically infeasible. It doesn't matter if it won't have the intended effect. When the people with money want something, YOU GIVE IT TO THEM. And let them deal with the consequences. Otherwise, you won't get the business, and life can otherwise be made very, very difficult for…

Except that the Web's getting DRM exactly so that Hollywood can restrict content to proprietary platforms that allow DRM. Right now, the main use for HTML5's DRM support is DRM on Chromebooks - hardware that's only available from a handful of approved suppliers and is locked down from the hardware up to stop the user running any non-manufacturer-approved code on it. If you enable the ability to run your own code, the DRM module refuses to decrypt anything, and so far as I know no-one has found a way to bypass this.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#248

Post by marcosdumay »

tripzilch wrote: post #217
captainmuon wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't really apply here. When sending an encrypted message, the adversary doesn't know the secret key. With DRM, the adversary is the receiver of the message. You (or your computer) already has the secret in Kerckhoff's sense. It's just a matter of finding out where the key or the unencrypted data is stored - in the worst case by hooking up hardware to the mainboard or the screen. You could make DRM "Kerckhoff hard…

> or you could just record the signal during playback ("analoge gap") And for that we are striving for newer technologies to close that gap from the analogue side. I'm not being entirely serious (yet), but thinking about Occulus Rift or Google Glass, etc. Once we get our media/games to jack in directly to our brains, like all the cyberpunk novels prescribe, it's going to be pretty hard to get a tap between the analog…

Whatever means you use, you must have an unencrypted stream somewhere, and you can tap that stream.

In your example, just make a computer that pretends to be your brain, and you'll get the data to post at Pirate Bay.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#249

Post by al2o3cr »

bitwize wrote: post #163
Nursie wrote: post #69

Great. DRM. The best example of shooting yourself in the foot ever. Give customers encrypted content and the keys, try to prevent them from freely using the two together, undermine copyright fair use and first sale doctrines as you go along. Intended effect - No Piracy Actual effect - Paying customers get crippled products, pirates carry on regardless It's crazy. And the more they try to lock it down the worse their…

Let me tell you how things work in the real world. When the people with money say "we want this", you don't argue. It doesn't matter if it's technically infeasible. It doesn't matter if it won't have the intended effect. When the people with money want something, YOU GIVE IT TO THEM. And let them deal with the consequences. Otherwise, you won't get the business, and life can otherwise be made very, very difficult for…

"When the people with money want something, YOU GIVE IT TO THEM."

Apparently this applies to everybody except consumers.

Re: Requirements for DRM in HTML are confidential

#250

Post by bgruber »

bitwize wrote: post #163
Nursie wrote: post #69

Great. DRM. The best example of shooting yourself in the foot ever. Give customers encrypted content and the keys, try to prevent them from freely using the two together, undermine copyright fair use and first sale doctrines as you go along. Intended effect - No Piracy Actual effect - Paying customers get crippled products, pirates carry on regardless It's crazy. And the more they try to lock it down the worse their…

Let me tell you how things work in the real world. When the people with money say "we want this", you don't argue. It doesn't matter if it's technically infeasible. It doesn't matter if it won't have the intended effect. When the people with money want something, YOU GIVE IT TO THEM. And let them deal with the consequences. Otherwise, you won't get the business, and life can otherwise be made very, very difficult for…

> So the Web either gets DRM, or Hollywood makes content available on proprietary platforms that provide it.

so, let's turn the web into another proprietary platform?

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