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Female Founders

paulgraham.com

401–410 of 634 posts

Re: Female Founders

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the shallowness of that kind of P.C. bullying--Paul Graham has done much more for women in technology than any Internet bully, but he will continue to be attacked because it is possible to assign uncharitable interpretations to a few things he said once. When one realizes that this whole kerfuffle is not about being pro-woman, it's about posturing such that one appears to be pro-woman, then the attackers' vie…

That's why we can't have nice things. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Such bullying incidents may look like PR victories for the PC crowd in terms of shaping public opinion. What they miss though is that even when they don't backfire loudly (see "donglegate"), they turn off moderate people who are otherwise neutral or sympathetic to reasonable calls for equal opportunities. By trying to guilt trip the whole wh…

Yes, if only MLK and the civil rights marchers had been quieter and more obedient, I'm sure racism would be less of a problem today.

Re: Female Founders

#402
post #26

I find myself disappointed by this blog post. The second paragraph amounts to a sexist version of "I'm not racist! I have black friends!" Then he follows up with statistics comparing YC to the general VC market. Fine, you do better than most. However, not the worst does not mean not bad. He comes closest to saying anything of substance with the paragraph: So how would you cause there to be more female programmers? Th…

Men learn at a certain point that we are not, in fact, women. We have different values, priorities, and hormones than women, and given the same scenarios we're likely to come to a different conclusion than a woman. So why would Paul try and talk from his zero years of experience as a woman and explain how to get more women in coding? Why not simply state "Please stop calling me a sexist, I don't like it, here's some…

>You're looking too deeply into this, I think.

That's what HN does.

I dunno. Allow me to share some thoughts as a young woman.

I had no problem getting into computer programming when I was young.

I had no problem getting accepted to a high-ranking university and graduating mathematics.

I had no problem completing a master's in computer science.

I had no problem finding resources for programming because they're already there, written by men and women. They just don't have "women's" or "for girls" written on the cover in large, brightly-coloured, friendly script.

So I don't really see what the fuss is about. Couldn't the low number of female computer scientists be due to the fact that not many girls are actually interested in such things? Maybe women can think and perceive what is around them for themselves, and don't need charities to show them the "hidden option" of programming?

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Addendum: before somebody jumps to the conclusion that I'm from a wealthy background, I'm working class, a humble chain-smoking serf. I'm from a bloody poor family and my CV has more bartending credentials than tech. I've never even dreamed of owning a current-gen Macbook, in stark contrast to every student I see these days, all seeming to have thousands of pounds worth of hardware without working a day in their lives. I've been using the same Linux machine for half a decade.

Libraries are free. If you're interested in doing something and you have the aptitude, you don't need to be spoon-fed by liberals.

Re: Female Founders

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are we really going to blame algorithms now for promoting prejudice? Your implicit claim is that a human can't write an algorithm that promotes prejudice. Are you interested in defending that claim? It seems very obviously false.

I guess you could . Although I'm not sure how exactly an algorithm can be inherently prejudiced, that sounds rather postmodern. You can make one that is inefficient or apply one that isn't suitable to a given data set, and end up with skewed results. But an algorithm promoting prejudice by itself? I don't know. I always thought mathematics was neutral. Either way, it absolutely does not apply here. HN's algorithms si…

Along a slightly different track than you were originally running on, there are a number of ways in which an algorithm could promote prejudice. Consider a nice little machine-learning algorithm that analyzes characteristics of successful employees at a given company in order to select new hires that share those characteristics. If, for instance, the company had a couple rabid barbecue-lovers who made sure that all lunches primarily featured delicious pork ribs, and they made fun of the vegetarians, Jews, Muslims, and people with braces who couldn't chew the meat off the ribs, and so being a rabid lover of pork was strongly correlated with success in the company and being a non-pork-lover or hampered by braces was strongly correlated with simply leaving the company at an early stage to get a job with the rival across the street that had vegetarian and shrimp satay lunch options... well, it's just the algorithm at work, my friend! Math is truth! As a mathematician, I guarantee it.

Time for dinner. heh.

Re: Female Founders

#404
post #65
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second paragraph amounts to a sexist version of "I'm not racist! I have black friends!" Actually by pointing out the degree to which women run things at YC it's closer to saying "I'm not racist! I'm black." And while it's possible for women to be sexist too, if you think Jessica, Kirsty, and Carolynn are sexist, I'd like to see you say it to their faces. And I do know something about groups working on getting gir…

> And while it's possible for women to be sexist too, if you think Jessica, Kirsty, and Carolynn are sexist, I'd like to see you say it to their faces. That... is not an argument? There's ample evidence to show that members of underrepresented groups within individual companies/industries experience unconscious biases in hiring/ranking/etc, even towards groups of which they're a member.

Yes. A fine example is that female bio professors are biased against female bio grad students: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/25/science/bias-persists-agai...

Sexism is everybody's problem. (Although as a guy who has benefited from it, I think it's my job to use that unearned power to reduce the inequity.)

Re: Female Founders

#405
Only 42% of those who reviewed drafts of this article are men - a pretty clear case of bias. We're going to need an article about how to fix an industry that's dominated by women (and don't get me started about those manicure shops!)

I think those of us who have watched PG over time already knew this, but isn't it easy to target someone successful when you have a cause? And how dare they not change?

P.S. It would be interesting to see whether YC is picking winners among the female founders they select ... their formula (as I understand it) seems pretty gender neutral.

Re: Female Founders

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside: I've looked at that BlackGirlsCode link a bit more and I'm quite shocked that such segregation is encouraged, lauded even. Now there's some argument to support educating the sexes separately but if you're an asian girl living in Brooklyn (say) you can't go? Just because you're Asian ... ??? Really? What if you're half-Asian+half-African, how about your skins black but you're South American. Damn. Do people rea…

Why the fuck is this being downvoted? The comment isn't stupid: such gender/race discrimination _may_ backfire(for example, if your message is read not as "black girls have the same abilities but may need extra help" but as "black girls need extra help because they are black & girls -- inherently less smart and talented". Now, I'm not saying that it _will_ backfire(I guess it probably won't) but it _may_. Also, the a…

This is troll under the guise of charity.

It's provocative, distracting and subverting - Introducing a politically sensitive, racially charged, artificial problem.

This will incite anger through political correctness. The cause is bogus.

Snubbing it is politically incorrect to criticize women and ethnic minorities in the west.

Non sequitur, PC trolls like this can do as much distracting as they please.

Why not bring up english? There are many people who are engineers who would benefit from localized API and developer documentation and understanding english better.

If you want discrimination in engineering - I'm surprised no one brings up english.

Edit to below: Sorry for editing this after your reply. I didn't notice.

Re: Female Founders

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your comment and your work - beta is one of the tools being used at BGC isn't it¹. More power to your arm! [or firings to your synapses or whatever]. > my observance BGC are good people who care about their community It's such a shame then that they promote themselves as only caring for the part of their community that has a particular colour of skin. ¹ - http://betathegame.com/

It's such a shame then that they promote themselves as only caring for the part of their community that has a particular colour of skin. I honestly can't tell if you're trolling here. In case you aren't: that is not what they are doing, and it also isn't a shame. Helping out people who are historically disadvantaged and face current discrimination is nothing to be ashamed about. The goal is to level the playing field…

[deleted]

Re: Female Founders

#408

My main takeaway from reading this article and the comments here is: The awareness of this problem is still very nascent and more & more solutions are emerging, as are criticisms of people who are beginning to acknowledge this problem. To hopefully steer this in another direction, and because I have a little girl, what are some resources you all have seen that can help girls become interested and go into technical di…

Aside: I've looked at that BlackGirlsCode link a bit more and I'm quite shocked that such segregation is encouraged, lauded even. Now there's some argument to support educating the sexes separately but if you're an asian girl living in Brooklyn (say) you can't go? Just because you're Asian ... ??? Really? What if you're half-Asian+half-African, how about your skins black but you're South American. Damn. Do people rea…

Is BlackGirlsCode, not OnlyBlackGirlsCode. Is a message that something is possible, not that the skill is exclusive.

I suspect you are fully aware of this anyway and are just disrailing the argument for fun.

Re: Female Founders

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your comment and your work - beta is one of the tools being used at BGC isn't it¹. More power to your arm! [or firings to your synapses or whatever]. > my observance BGC are good people who care about their community It's such a shame then that they promote themselves as only caring for the part of their community that has a particular colour of skin. ¹ - http://betathegame.com/

It's such a shame then that they promote themselves as only caring for the part of their community that has a particular colour of skin. I honestly can't tell if you're trolling here. In case you aren't: that is not what they are doing, and it also isn't a shame. Helping out people who are historically disadvantaged and face current discrimination is nothing to be ashamed about. The goal is to level the playing field…

> And I am not the only one who has noticed this. E.g.: http://pgbovine.net/tech-privilege.htm

That's really poor piece.

I don't want to waste too much time with this, but the author really needs to reflect upon what he's saying.

He listed his unearned privileges. Let's think about each one.

> [T]hroughout college, nobody ever said to me: > > > “Well, you only got into MIT because you're an Asian boy.”

Wow. Come on, man.

Yes, he better have that "privilege". He earned it! MIT's standards for him (as an Asian male) were far more challenging than the standards for any other demographic. He had to be far more competent than everyone else. For anyone to claim that he was advantaged for being Asian would be simply outrageous.

Why do we need to fix that fact that his hard work was properly recognized? Why is that unjust?

And why doesn't the author realize that holding people to lower standards for having a vagina, or for belonging to a certain race, or for having a certain sexual orientation, etc., will justifiably result in others prejudging members of those demographics as being less competent until proven otherwise?

He goes on:

> (while struggling with a problem set) “Well, not everyone is cut out for Computer Science; have you considered majoring in bio?”

Come on, man. Boys hear that all the time. In fact, a couple of white boys who weren't doing well in my computer science class were told, "If you're not having fun in this class, there are plenty of other challenging classes you can take."

What boys don't experience, however is people saying, "Hey, let me jump out of my seat to help you with your problem, because you have breasts and a vagina." People are always quick to rush to the aid of a struggling girl or woman, while boys are generally left to fend for themselves.

Then:

> (after being assigned to a class project team) “How about you just design the graphics while we handle the backend? It'll be easier for everyone that way.”

Males are told this all the time, every day. And in the workplace, if a man disagrees with his assignment, it's his responsibility as a grown-up to say something about it. If the author wants to give women grown-up rights, they need to be given grown-up responsibilities, too.

And if the author is lamenting that women are presently prejudged as being less competent, then he's probably right. And it's his fault. When women don't have to be as good to qualify for a position, it's safe to assume that they are indeed less competent, until proven otherwise.

Finally:

> “Are you sure you know how to do this?”

Males are called out for incompetency all the time. If the author feels that Asian males are too often given the benefit of the doubt, then he should be campaigning to lower the higher standards to which they are held.

> For every white or Asian male expert programmer you know, imagine a parallel universe where they were of another ethnicity and/or gender but had the exact same initial interest and aptitude levels. Would they still have been willing to devote the over ten thousand hours of deliberate practice to achieve mastery in the face of dozens or hundreds of instances of implicit discouragement they will inevitably encounter over the years?

Yes, they would. We know this for a fact, because they encountered tons of discouragement along the way. Until very recently, programming wasn't fashionable. It wasn't trendy. It wasn't even particularly lucrative (which is why feminists have only now turned their eyes toward the field, demanding that women be given free passes).

Uncool outcasts were programmers. Nerds were programmers. And within programming communities, people were brutally honest with each other. However, brutal honesty isn't an issue to the author if the recipient of the honesty is a white European with a penis.

For example, When Linus publicly trashes a white European for his perceived incompetency, there is no feminist outcry. Everyone laughs a bit and says, "He's so direct!". Whenever a woman is trashed, however, it's time for action."How dare he?! This is why there women don't want to be in tech!"

The author wants to handle certain demographics with kid gloves while simultaneously scolding everyone for noticing that they are handled with kid gloves.

No thank you.

If we want to get more people into programming, great! Let's ensure that everyone on the outside has a fair chance. But let's not force certain demographics to be held to higher standards. Let's help everyone reach the same standards.

Re: Female Founders

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the fuck is this being downvoted? The comment isn't stupid: such gender/race discrimination _may_ backfire(for example, if your message is read not as "black girls have the same abilities but may need extra help" but as "black girls need extra help because they are black & girls -- inherently less smart and talented". Now, I'm not saying that it _will_ backfire(I guess it probably won't) but it _may_. Also, the a…

This is troll under the guise of charity. It's provocative, distracting and subverting - Introducing a politically sensitive, racially charged, artificial problem. This will incite anger through political correctness. The cause is bogus. Snubbing it is politically incorrect to criticize women and ethnic minorities in the west. Non sequitur, PC trolls like this can do as much distracting as they please. Why not bring…

You make a great point aboit the use of English for documentation, and the need for translation to other languages to promote computing in different nations.

See how I didn't mention race or sex or sexuality? That's because you don't need to mention that other stuff when you have a tight focus.

"Help girls code" does not mean "stop translating documentation to Portuguese".

"Help translate all these documentations and apis to many languages" doesn't mean "don't bother spending time teaching girls to code".

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