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An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

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Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#61
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, U.S. Congressmen don't care what foreigners think about U.S. surveillance policy. Frankly, U.S. Congressmen don't care what Americans think about U.S. surveillance policy.

> Frankly, U.S. Congressmen don't care what Americans think about U.S. surveillance policy. They clearly do, because they spend quite a bit of effort trying to shape what Americans think about it, which is inconsistent with not caring what Americans think.

They're concerned with they want Americans to think about surveillance. That's markedly different from caring what we actually think.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't know Aaron Swartz, but my understanding is that surveillance and whistleblowing were important issues for him. For instance, he developed software for anonymous whistleblowing for those like Edward Snowden: http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/aaron-swartz-inbox-for-whis...

"surveillance and whistleblowing were important issues for him" There you've conflated them again, and then provided another point about Swartz being in favor of access to information. You specifically did not address the grandparent's question about why Swartz would be against access to information for some cases and for access to information in other cases. I'm not suggesting that he wouldn't (I don't know offhand,…

I don't think there is a necessary contradiction in "favoring access" to government-promoted or funded arts and sciences, as well as "favoring access" to full disclosure of surveillance programs and desiring effective judicial oversight, and not "favoring access" when the government wants to have a large amount of data about the lives of its citizens.

The current surveillance is being performed without oversight and in secret: so a "favoring access" stance aligns with wanting full disclosure of the surveillance, and a judicial process that allows for oversight of what is being surveilled and when.

Within the surveillance issue is a desire for privacy (which is not "favouring access" to information, as you note), which I think comes from two issues: that the government is a public institution for the public good and so it has less expectation of privacy than an individual. and also that there is a power imbalance between what the ability to act on information between governments and other entities, and an individual.

Publicly-funded research that the public is denied access to is an issue of both government openness and power imbalance.

Government promotion of the arts and sciences (which is the reason for copyright) being used to unduly deny the public access to aspects arts and sciences falls into both as well, IMHO.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#63
post #6

We had to cut down Aaron's quote to hit the HN 2k character limit, but the full quote we originally intended to use was: "[We defeated SOPA] because everyone made themselves the hero of their own story. Everyone took it as their job to save this crucial freedom. They threw themselves into it. They did whatever they could think of to do." Very much hoping the community will rally around and join us in this. In particu…

Those larger tech companies you mention are on the other side of the fence when it comes to surveillance and privacy.

And I'm not even talking about the accusations of complicity (or have we forgotten that was the opening salvo in the NSA revelations, followed by a boilerplate non-denial and an eery silence?), but the fact that these companies regularly violate privacy laws (at least outside the US) and lobby against privacy protection.

Especially for me as a non-American, the US government and US tech companies like Google and Facebook are two sides of the same coin.

Of course they (or their employees) don't get involved, and they shouldn't. That would be like Elsevier getting involved with supporting Open Access.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#64
A general comment on the nature of activism and the political process: one of the goals of activism in the political area is to move both public sentiment (awareness / consciousness raising) and public policy. Now, one of the things to realize here is that this is a never-ending back and forth process, and sometimes the same battles are fought in different forms over time - and this can be incredibly frustrating unless you realize that this is the case. It's easy to believe that it's like fixing a bug; once you've patched policy/changed the mind of society on a topic, that it's fixed forever. Not so. New forms of an idea pick up; your favored policy falls out of favor due to changing events/other beliefs/ideologies/cultures that become popular; a new generation is born that has none of the bad experiences you had, and can have bad policies foisted on them; zombie ideas rise from the grave once more.

This can be disheartening, frustrating, even despondency-inducing. I've been there more than once, and activists across the world have probably been experiencing this since the first protest happened outside the first town hall.

For those stating "it will do nothing" - it can sometimes be hard to see the distant / second-order effects, but they do matter. Registering dissent matters. Now, I would add that there is a threshold beyond which activism loses its potency (for a variety of possible reasons) and you need to go to the next level (everything from non-violent resistance to revolutions.) In this particular case, we're nowhere near that, and by the looks of it, the tide is firmly against the anti-surveillance bloc, so pile on.

Finally, I'd say that the idea that the arc of the universe bends towards justice is wrong; people bend societies towards it.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#65
post #9

As foreigners, should we care? Next time someone organizes something similar, can they think of a worlwide action? Can they make something which doesn't sound like "Worldwide anti-american day" but rather "Worldwide day of support to the debate that US citizen started"? US citizens are only 313 millions and the US law protects you against surveillance. We, the rest of the world, are all subject to this surveillance i…

>US citizens are only 313 millions and the US law protects you against surveillance.

This actually isn't true. The USA PATRIOT Act, Title II expanded surveillance procedures greatly so that pretty much anything is covered under it, it is so broad and encompassing. Someone on TV even quoted from it that it said it allowed surveillance for "any reason whatsoever" or some words to that effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#66
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why do you even need some personification?" People need to be anchored in something they can relate to or is memorable or of note. Think of all the laws like "megans law" etc. Somewhat common to use a person as a rallying point for a cause.

But let's be honest with ourselves. In the case of, say, a "Megan's Law", Megan was an innocent little girl who deserved none of what happened to her. Aaron, on the other hand, entered a networking closet, configured his computer in such a way to bypass the network's security/authorization protocols and then violated the terms of service of JSTOR to download all their content. He knew he shouldn't have been doing he…

>Aaron, on the other hand, entered a networking closet, configured his computer in such a way to bypass the network's security/authorization protocols and then violated the terms of service of JSTOR to download all their content.

If you think that's all Aaron did with his life, or that this is what his life should be defined by, then that is a tragedy.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#67
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Frankly, U.S. Congressmen don't care what Americans think about U.S. surveillance policy. They clearly do, because they spend quite a bit of effort trying to shape what Americans think about it, which is inconsistent with not caring what Americans think.

They're concerned with they want Americans to think about surveillance. That's markedly different from caring what we actually think.

> They're concerned with they want Americans to think about surveillance. That's markedly different from caring what we actually think.

Having a desire for somone to think a particular thing about a subject is exactly caring what they actually think about a subject.

I think the distinction you want to draw is more between being influenced by what Americans actually think, on the one hand, and attempting to influence what Americans actually think, on the other.

But then, again, the only rational reason for members of Congress to try to influence what Americans think is because they think that what Americans actually think impacts the prospects for their political agenda, e.g., by influencing their likelihood of getting elected or influencing the behavior of other members of Congress or the President (perhaps by influencing those actors electoral prospects), so, really, I think that even that distinction is somewhat false. The reason politicians want to shape opinions is because politicians actions do respond to opinions.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#68
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, U.S. Congressmen don't care what foreigners think about U.S. surveillance policy. Foreigners aren't going to vote them out of office. I think the EFF, etc. are wise to focus their limited resources in ways that maximize their chances of being heard. The Snowden revelations make clear that U.S. citizens are not protected against surveillance by their own government. Just because foreigners are less protected…

> Frankly, U.S. Congressmen don't care what foreigners think about U.S. surveillance policy. Congress might care when US corporations' bottom lines are affected by the surveillance. In fact, it's starting to be reported that US corporations are being affected already. EDIT: To be clear, when US corporations bottom lines in sales to entities in foreign countries. IBM and Cisco have already attributed slumps in sales t…

This is true. I doubt that most Congressmen are able to see this obvious consequence in advance, but when the corporate lobbying picks up as a result they'll start to care.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#70

Call me skeptical, but this is yet another sign of the degeneration of Western civilization and the indoctrination of being apathetic. If you really think slamming a website online and calling people to post memes on Facebook will change anything but some link scoops on CNN, you are delusional. About 5 months ago I posted a related comment ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6147370 ) and it's as true as any other…

The average honey bee only makes 1/12th of a teaspoon of excess honey in their lifetime. The average skeptic/cynic makes none.

That is because they are not bees.

This really is the last time you are left in charge of the hives. And I don't care if Diogenes says he likes it in there, he's probably just drunk.

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