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An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

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Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#51

Post by themckman »

larrys wrote: post #26
hnha wrote: post #7

With all due respect, using Aaron Schwartz's case about copyright as motivator for the case against surveillance seems weird. Why do you even need some personification?

"Why do you even need some personification?" People need to be anchored in something they can relate to or is memorable or of note. Think of all the laws like "megans law" etc. Somewhat common to use a person as a rallying point for a cause.

But let's be honest with ourselves. In the case of, say, a "Megan's Law", Megan was an innocent little girl who deserved none of what happened to her. Aaron, on the other hand, entered a networking closet, configured his computer in such a way to bypass the network's security/authorization protocols and then violated the terms of service of JSTOR to download all their content. He knew he shouldn't have been doing he was doing, but did it anyways.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#52

Post by rosser »

john_b wrote: post #32
aragot wrote: post #9

As foreigners, should we care? Next time someone organizes something similar, can they think of a worlwide action? Can they make something which doesn't sound like "Worldwide anti-american day" but rather "Worldwide day of support to the debate that US citizen started"? US citizens are only 313 millions and the US law protects you against surveillance. We, the rest of the world, are all subject to this surveillance i…

Frankly, U.S. Congressmen don't care what foreigners think about U.S. surveillance policy. Foreigners aren't going to vote them out of office. I think the EFF, etc. are wise to focus their limited resources in ways that maximize their chances of being heard. The Snowden revelations make clear that U.S. citizens are not protected against surveillance by their own government. Just because foreigners are less protected…

Frankly, U.S. Congressmen don't care what foreigners think about U.S. surveillance policy.

Frankly, U.S. Congressmen don't care what Americans think about U.S. surveillance policy.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#53

Post by bushido »

bananacurve wrote: post #45
autotravis wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the more we talk about it, the more everyone becomes desensitized to the U.S. surveillance problem. Then we get the public at large just rolling their eyes and saying "Oh, another paranoid lunatic wants to take over the government". I want to do more than just like stuff on facebook... hopefully this will present something more tangible. I signed up for the "Add a banner to your site" list. I can tell ~15…

>U.S. surveillance problem As long as people are willing to pretend that the problem is only the US and not the entire West colluding then the easier it is for these governments to continue.

> As long as people are willing to pretend that the problem is only the US and not the entire West colluding then the easier it is for these governments to continue.

This may be true to some extent. But let me provide an anti-thesis to the statement.

For nearly a century (or more) everyone has looked at the US to lead in reforms and at times reversing reforms. What happens in the US is often used as a model by world governments as a blueprint.

If the US citizens, corporations and the tech community in general could get the US to positively change the distopian outlook/direction we (the world) seems to be heading in, this change would trickle down to the other countries beginning with the Western countries that you aptly state are colluding together.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#54

Post by t1m »

aragot wrote: post #9

As foreigners, should we care? Next time someone organizes something similar, can they think of a worlwide action? Can they make something which doesn't sound like "Worldwide anti-american day" but rather "Worldwide day of support to the debate that US citizen started"? US citizens are only 313 millions and the US law protects you against surveillance. We, the rest of the world, are all subject to this surveillance i…

At least one of the three OPs is a foreigner. The problem is much larger than the US.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#56

Post by dragonwriter »

rosser wrote: post #52
john_b wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, U.S. Congressmen don't care what foreigners think about U.S. surveillance policy. Foreigners aren't going to vote them out of office. I think the EFF, etc. are wise to focus their limited resources in ways that maximize their chances of being heard. The Snowden revelations make clear that U.S. citizens are not protected against surveillance by their own government. Just because foreigners are less protected…

Frankly, U.S. Congressmen don't care what foreigners think about U.S. surveillance policy. Frankly, U.S. Congressmen don't care what Americans think about U.S. surveillance policy.

> Frankly, U.S. Congressmen don't care what Americans think about U.S. surveillance policy.

They clearly do, because they spend quite a bit of effort trying to shape what Americans think about it, which is inconsistent with not caring what Americans think.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#57

Post by mortyseinfeld »

chimeracoder wrote: post #3

As someone who has done a fair amount of activism and advocacy work, I'll say this: Over the last 6 months, I've seen a number of people make comments on relevant HN posts to the effect of "This sucks, but how do we actually change anything" This is what you've been waiting for - here's a chance to actually do something about it. Don't be discouraged when things seem to be standing still. Because of the way our minds…

Any Good Samaritan law that comes with an obligation is absolutely horrible and dangerous to free societies.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#58

Post by bushido »

callcongressnow wrote: post #40

Ever since the NSA business leaked, I've been thinking about this problem. It took me a few months to wrap my head around all the crazy stuff that's been going on but I've started building some systems that I think might have a chance of helping out. "Call Congress Now"- using Twilio, you can call Congress folk from your browser (for free). http://www.callcongressnow.org/ Here are some Congress people who are doing s…

Maybe we need to take the shawshank redemption approach "Still, I'd like to try, with your permission. I'll send a letter a week. They can't ignore me forever."

Let's build automated tools allowing people to send out letters, signed petitions, emails, faxes, pre-recorded voicemail etc.

That would would potentially eliminate procrastination.

Just a thought.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#59

Post by zt »

I agree with the message and the goal but why is this an open letter rather than just an email to PG? Rather, the subject seems confused. It could be they're trying to reach all the HN users, but when they write "You blacked out your websites, lobbied your employers to do the same, and started creative campaigns to defeat a threat to freedom on the Internet" that seems directed at the people who run HN.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#60

Post by vidarh »

bushido wrote: post #53
bananacurve wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>U.S. surveillance problem As long as people are willing to pretend that the problem is only the US and not the entire West colluding then the easier it is for these governments to continue.

> As long as people are willing to pretend that the problem is only the US and not the entire West colluding then the easier it is for these governments to continue. This may be true to some extent. But let me provide an anti-thesis to the statement. For nearly a century (or more) everyone has looked at the US to lead in reforms and at times reversing reforms. What happens in the US is often used as a model by world…

> For nearly a century (or more) everyone has looked at the US to lead in reforms and at times reversing reforms. What happens in the US is often used as a model by world governments as a blueprint.

In what respects? I can think of far more cases over the last century of the US lagging behind in reforms than taking the lead. In European politics, the US is more often channelled as the big regressive bogeyman (e.g. "we don't want US conditions, do we?") than somewhere to look to for reforms.

To the extent governments looks to the US, it is more often out of necessity due to the balance of power.

It's be fantastic if that changed and the US became a beacon of progress, but that will still take a lot.

In terms of surveillance, though, just getting the US pressure lifted would make local progress vastly easier.

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